Big crash on Nürburgring between 911 GT3 RS + BMW M2 (didn't use blinkers)

[G30M]

Originally Posted by matty_f

Also RS driver’s statement.

his insurance will pay for his GT3RS ! OMG I need this insurance

[Erickuokwa]

Because it is a public road, the m2 actually might get fined for impeding the fast lane. But like many have said, the bmw probably did not even see the p car come up from behind. When it comes to racing, being out of the vortex of danger in entry and exits are very important to minimize collision. To me both were at fault. Just a risky corner to overtake if you do not trust the drivers nearby.

[lcasale]

Never tracked cars but tracked motorcycles for years but I think the experience still applies. My observations...

1. I don't understand why they allow such a wide range of skill on the track at the same time. That's just a recipe for disaster.
2. Porsche driver barely had time to evaluate the driving tendancies of the m2, got impatient and tried a risky pass. I get there are rules that are supposed to be followed but apply some common sense. If you get behind a car all over the race line observe them for a few corners to plan and execute your move. This isn't a race.

Maybe it's just different on the ring compared to orgs I've tracked with. Or maybe my risk tolerance on the track was lower? But being patient helped avoid some nasty crashes.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by lcasale

Never tracked cars but tracked motorcycles for years but I think the experience still applies. My observations...

1. I don't understand why they allow such a wide range of skill on the track at the same time. That's just a recipe for disaster.
2. Porsche driver barely had time to evaluate the driving tendancies of the m2, got impatient and tried a risky pass. I get there are rules that are supposed to be followed but apply some common sense. If you get behind a car all over the race line observe them for a few corners to plan and execute your move. This isn't a race.

Maybe it's just different on the ring compared to orgs I've tracked with. Or maybe my risk tolerance on the track was lower? But being patient helped avoid some nasty crashes.

The Ring since last year has become undrivable. Prior to that not many people knew about it, only the pure drivers. Then thanks to social media every man and his dog wants to go there, and it's become a tourist destination.

[helmet91]

Originally Posted by G30M

The Ring since last year has become undrivable. Prior to that not many people knew about it, only the pure drivers. Then thanks to social media every man and his dog wants to go there, and it's become a tourist destination.

I would counter that it’s always been a tourist destination… hence the name of the public driving sessions that happen a few hours every evening during the week and all day Saturday and Sunday outside of some sort of specialy scheduled event.

It has become an event for egocentric assholes in fast/expensive cars flexing for Insta/TikTok/Youtube. It’s an Amsterdam stag party on wheels. Touristenfahrten has lost its innocence and it’s truly disappointing.

Lots of people blame Mischa… but when you get down to it, Gran Turismo and Top Gear are what opened the place up to the world. Additionally, current management has done a horrible job with allowing so many cars on track at once.

Pushing it to the limit, holding the racing line, hitting all the apexes, and all the rest of it should really be relegated to the big fancy track days, not TF sessions. TF isn’t N24 qualifying and a lot of people seem to have forgotten that. Leave the stopwatch and GoPro for Manthey Days, not TF.

[Bald Guy]

Glad both drivers survived. Praying for full recovery.

[NealfromNZ]

Taken both bikes and cars to track days and BMW CC driver training. It’s quite clear that the ring is a free for all and don’t distinguish between novice and frequent attendees with considerable track experience or capabilities.

Perhaps it’s time the ring does session times for varying skill levels and have the usual rookie , intermediate and track seasoned drivers. Stops the rookie getting craved up and put into situations they don’t have the skill level to react and adjust in time. No doubt some of you watch Mishas in car videos and he has a number of close calls with the slower driver taking the apex line.

I’m amazed dispite being a massive hit in the wrong place on the track ( one of few areas without continuous crash barriers)the Porsche driver survived. A testament to the safety engineering that goes into a modern performance car. Hope both drivers have a speedy recovery and no lasting ongoing injuries.

[M5Rick]

I had to use ABS crunching in last week when, yep you guessed it an Audi veered half into my lane when he got impatient behind a right turning car in front of him and turned left where I was passing. My left foot braking came in real handy saving that precious second.

[fs1977]

Originally Posted by G30M

The Ring since last year has become undrivable. Prior to that not many people knew about it, only the pure drivers. Then thanks to social media every man and his dog wants to go there, and it's become a tourist destination.

It's not since last year, but way longer than that. I would say this has been going on for at least the last decade or even longer.

Like helmet91 says, it has always been a tourist destination. And that every man and his dog where lapping on their own pace was a big part of the charm of the Nordschleife. There where two distinct groups of drivers, the locals who where fast and the tourist who where not. Those two groups got allong just fine and there was mutual respect.

But ever since Top Gear featured it in one of its episodes it has all gone down from there. It became more crowded, character of the visiting groups changed and social media did the rest. I totally agree whit helmet91, TF lost it's innocence and it ís really dissapointing.

[musclesmarinara75]

Originally Posted by Tejas1836

Both drivers survived.

I wonder what he is going to do witht that rotor lol

[Tejas1836]

Originally Posted by musclesmarinara75

I wonder what he is going to do witht that rotor lol

Thought the same. I would hang it on my wall with pictures and a plaque of description.

[zx10guy]

I wonder if the Ring has something similar to the Tail of the Dragon's Tree of Shame.

[Stealth7]

Glad the parties are okay. This is a very dangerous situation and very alarming for anyone whoever does a track day. A few thoughts not directly related to this incident:

1. Most track days in the US that I have attended are closed to the public. You must go in with a specific group.

2. The Nurburing apparently allows someone to simply drive up with a Hertz rental car and do a lap or a family in a minivan to do a lap at the same time that you could have a GT3 rs. This is a prescription for disaster.

3. The car in the back should always have the responsibility to pass the car in the front safely.

4. Generally you' are on the track to have fun --you are not trying to make money and should not risk your life or anyone else's life. If you need to let them pass it is not the end of the world. Everyone should be driving home in their own car intact at night.

5. Most US track days I've ever attended required pre-sreening of drivers, equipment impsection, safety gear, driver's meetings,segregation of drivers into specific experience --level run groups , segregated run groups on the track, corner and safety workers, etc. This seems like a much different situation than that presented with the Nurburgring

[Canuck335]

Originally Posted by Erickuokwa

Because it is a public road, the m2 actually might get fined for impeding the fast lane. But like many have said, the bmw probably did not even see the p car come up from behind. When it comes to racing, being out of the vortex of danger in entry and exits are very important to minimize collision. To me both were at fault. Just a risky corner to overtake if you do not trust the drivers nearby.

It is still the BMW driver’s responsibility to make a safe lane change.
If he’s not fully certain it’s safe, the fault lies with him.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Canuck335

It is still the BMW driver’s responsibility to make a safe lane change.
If he’s not fully certain it’s safe, the fault lies with him.

According to seasoned Ring drivers, the German court apportions the blame and it's usually shared, with the court deciding on the exact proportion of blame.

[helmet91]

Originally Posted by Stealth7

Glad the parties are okay. This is a very dangerous situation and very alarming for anyone whoever does a track day. A few thoughts not directly related to this incident:

1. Most track days in the US that I have attended are closed to the public. You must go in with a specific group.

2. The Nurburing apparently allows someone to simply drive up with a Hertz rental car and do a lap or a family in a minivan to do a lap at the same time that you could have a GT3 rs. This is a prescription for disaster.

3. The car in the back should always have the responsibility to pass the car in the front safely.

4. Generally you' are on the track to have fun --you are not trying to make money and should not risk your life or anyone else's life. If you need to let them pass it is not the end of the world. Everyone should be driving home in their own car intact at night.

5. Most US track days I've ever attended required pre-sreening of drivers, equipment impsection, safety gear, driver's meetings,segregation of drivers into specific experience --level run groups , segregated run groups on the track, corner and safety workers, etc. This seems like a much different situation than that presented with the Nurburgring

Again, a Tourist Drive session is public access to a toll road that is governed by the German rules of the road. It was never meant to be what it has become.

Your 1-5 apply to sponsored track days.

The problem at the Ring is drivers are trying to turn TF into a track day, which it is not.

[fs1977]

Exactly. And trackdays are also available on the Ring with multiple organisations like Sky Limits or Schnelle Schwaben.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by helmet91

The problem at the Ring is drivers are trying to turn TF into a track day, which it is not.

You promote what you permit, there's clearly zero enforcement.

[NaijeN]

70% of the Porsche driver's fault

[fs1977]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

You promote what you permit, there's clearly zero enforcement.

That's not true. People and cars are banned and/or fined when not following or complying with the rules. Thing is, it has to be detected. Same as on public roads, chances of getting caught speeding or not driving as much to the right hand side as possible are slim. But being in an accident while breaking some rules will cost you a lot.

[musclesmarinara75]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

I wonder if the Ring has something similar to the Tail of the Dragon's Tree of Shame.

still have your ZX10??

[Dan B]

The following statement is made from an entirely from my experience with growing up around racing, experience in competition racing as a driver, working for a world class racing school teaching these concepts, countless track days, and from my observations based on the short video.

1. The BMW may or may not have seen the Porsche.
2. As the overtaking car, you must assume the other car has not seen you.
3. The racing line was from right to left so the Porsche should have expected the move left.
4. It is the repsonsibility of the overtaking car to execute a safe pass.
5. If you are being overtaken be predictable. Follow the racing line.
6. The BMW would not even be guilty of blocking. It was a single movement and followed the racing line.
7. The single most important thing, when in doubt, do NOT try to pass someone. This is not a race. Be patient.

I would assign 100% of the blame to the Porsche. They were the overtaking car and they tried to pass at the apex.

Sure, the BMW could have stayed right but as harsh as this sounds, it was not their responsibility. They can tool along on the racing line and at most, they can be stopped by the Ring marshals.

Please remember, not everyone is as good a driver as you are. Even if you are running in an "experienced" run group. I have seen stupid shit at every level.

My final thought is, if you are participting in a track day and there is a slower car in front of you, you have a few choices.

1. Wait for the point-by.
2. Do a drivethrough of the pits to put space between you and the other car
3. Wait till they see you and then give you the point-by
4. Make an ill advised pass.

In every track day I have been part of, you would be in more trouble than the slower car. They would be reminded of paying attention, and you would be reminded of the passing rules and maybe even be sent home.