330I or MazdaSpeed 6

[Bimmerista]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

and FYI, neither the BMW or Audi does any good in SCCA speed touring car challenge.
http://www.world-challenge.com/2005/tc-standings.html

When you get into SCCA GT challenge, Audi RS 6 is all over the place. Don't see many M3s though.

I also remember a german engineer quoting how TSX is best FWD handling car ever made despite the weight figure.

Interesting. I did not know Randy Pobst races for Mazda - I thought he was with Audi.

So is the TSX the best of the two or the TL ? That german engineer did say "best handling front wheel drive".


The test result I mentioned in my previous post as reported in the German mag places the TSX after the Ford Mondeo, which, in Europe, is considered one of the best handling front wheel drive cars. In fact, the Opel Vectra came out ahead too (we may get that one here as a Saturn one day). So go figure. What no one disputes is that Accords handle well - better perhaps than the Mazdas. One can compare anything but I find that a comparison with BMW is not in their interest to make.


Anywho, according to the race results, the best handling cars are the TSX and Mazda ? Or is that more a question of who the best racing cars are this season in that league ?

[lux.sh]

^ then again, I wouldn't really judge on BMW/Audi handling based on that
info. I mean it could've been the drivers.

but the fact that alot of touring racers still prefer tsx or other japanese vehicles, it just proves that they are capable of good handling.

[Bimmerista]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

^ then again, I wouldn't really judge on BMW/Audi handling based on that
info. I mean it could've been the drivers.

but the fact that alot of touring racers still prefer tsx or other japanese vehicles, it just proves that they are capable of good handling.

Agreed - I would never dispute that; drove my in-laws TL and I have to say I was impressed. I could sense some torque, but otherwise very solid feel. Steering was waaaay to light, but that is another story.

[SilverE90Sport]

Originally Posted by rebe1

Japanese crap? Man, we got another BMW snob over here. BMW's are definately not all that. Audi's? Even less so because you feel like you're driving an Accord with them. BMW's depreciates like crazy, but atleast its a seemingly fun ride until you touch a real sports car (re: 997, Cayman, Corvette Z06, etc.).

The fact remains that BMW is in a league of it's own. Mazda is a composite of parts built by Ford. Like it or not NO Mazda, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura or anything else from Nippon will ever meet the total engineering prowess or prestige that accompanies a BMW. The BMW E90 is truly the gold standard by which all vehicles in this segment can be measured against. To compare it to Porsche and Corvette is non sequitur. BTW, it helps to know what you are talking about before you make a post. BMW is rated among the best for value retention http://www.automotivedigest.com/view...ticlesID=17152.

[Phoenix-IT]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

You still didn't prove sh1t. Its my opinion, and such subject as interior design is all personal preference. and those pics doesn't do anything.

Did I mention anything about VTEC engine? what the hell are you talking about.

Ok, if it makes you feel better, yes, you own a rice box, with NO low-end torque, gotta spin up to 6000rpm to get at least some power, interior that is made out of cheap plastic crap, handles like a daewoo, so go out there and get a real car.

Feel better?
And I didn't say anything about accord's handling. YOU need to put on your damn glassses on. Than again, TSX is a euro accord. but I bet you are too smart to notice that. S4? How much is S4 and how much is TSX?

Get your comparison straight. Why are you putting down your honda so much and coming here acting like a BMW fanboy? Really, it looks pathetic.

I didn't say my Honda was bad... in fact it's a sight better in handling than an Accord.

I'm not a BMW fanboy... I'm a german car fanboy.

BTW Since you're quoting the mags... Audi consistantly ranks highest in interior quality. Honda's have good interiors... Much better than most American cars... However, good is not the same as great, which Audi has. This opinion is not pathetic, it's just honest.

Unless you want to waste more time 'ing me.

[Ed_330i]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

^ then again, I wouldn't really judge on BMW/Audi handling based on that
info. I mean it could've been the drivers.

but the fact that alot of touring racers still prefer tsx or other japanese vehicles, it just proves that they are capable of good handling.

we talked about this on the other forum.


those are running the older E46, and jap cars are easier to mod/race.
plus i remember something about factory sponsering for those courses.

[blueStreak]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

and FYI, neither the BMW or Audi does any good in SCCA speed touring car challenge.
http://www.world-challenge.com/2005/tc-standings.html

When you get into SCCA GT challenge, Audi RS 6 is all over the place. Don't see many M3s though.

Trying to extract anything about a manufacturer's production car performance based on World Challenge results is about as useless as it gets. WC cars are heavily regulated/modified in an attempt to create a level field among all the various manufacturers. Well, you can guess how that ends up. Just have a look at WC GT last season.

[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by blueStreak

Trying to extract anything about a manufacturer's production car performance based on World Challenge results is about as useless as it gets. WC cars are heavily regulated/modified in an attempt to create a level field among all the various manufacturers. Well, you can guess how that ends up. Just have a look at WC GT last season.

I explained the similar theory in my other post. I also said similar things that you said in other honda forum I go to, and I got flamed badly.

So help me understand here.

My thoughts------------------
I wouldn't say "useless as it gets". Then how can you really measure manufacturer's production car performance if real life racing experiences/records doesn't prove anything? Not to mention prices of these TSXs and Mazda 6s aren't even close to the prices of BMWs.

Level field, ok. http://www.world-challenge.com/carfacts.html
so they have regulations. Given equal mods and tuning, its up to the drivers and vehicle's potential/performance. I guess we can either say; A. Brand A drivers can't drive. B. When both tuned, car A usually is capable of out-handling/performing car B.

Though I agree, there are better ways of reviewing a vehicle's performance, but these racing records are sure enough to set bragging rights.

[cntlaw]

Originally Posted by Phoenix-IT

I didn't say my Honda was bad... in fact it's a sight better in handling than an Accord.

I'm not a BMW fanboy... I'm a german car fanboy.

BTW Since you're quoting the mags... Audi consistantly ranks highest in interior quality. Honda's have good interiors... Much better than most American cars... However, good is not the same as great, which Audi has. This opinion is not pathetic, it's just honest.

Unless you want to waste more time 'ing me.

Phoenix
Don't waste your time on Lux. No one dare to come to this forum to sing about a lousy Honda interior to a E90 owner's face. Honda cars might be ok 15 years ago and today they are all shhhht regardless US or Euro versions. Which tuners could turn a Japanese car to race is totally irrelevant to the brand quality. Audi and MB interiors are No.1. Lux is making himself a big joke and he thinks E90 owners down here are all 12-year old.

[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by cntlaw

Phoenix
Don't waste your time on Lux. No one dare to come to this forum to sing about a lousy Honda interior to a E90 owner's face. Honda cars might be ok 15 years ago and today they are all shhhht regardless US or Euro versions. Which tuners could turn a Japanese car to race is totally irrelevant to the brand quality. Audi and MB interiors are No.1. Lux is making himself a big joke and he thinks E90 owners down here are all 12-year old.

Again, another german car fanboy. You guys just can't seem to see how good the japanese cars are doing. "Today, they are all shhhhhhhhht" huh? I guess thats why japanese cars always get rated better in reliability. such german build quality is so damn great.

I own both prelude & e90, and honestly, do you think I'll prefer my honda over my BMW? Reality check here. I don't care how nice the honda becomes, BMW/MB/Audi will ALWAYS be on top of my list. And my E90 being first german vehicle I ever owned, I am in love with it. I don't think I can ever go back to honda/toyota. This however, won't make me a cocky german fanboy.

And when the hell did I ever say about anyone being 12 yrs old? You sir, don't have any idea of what is going on. Please, keep such plain fanboy-alike comments to yourself and try not to throw personal insults at somebody who wants the get the fact straighten out. Damn it, I just did the samething, huh?

[cntlaw]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

Again, another german car fanboy. You guys just can't seem to see how good the japanese cars are doing. "Today, they are all shhhhhhhhht" huh? I guess thats why japanese cars always get rated better in reliability. such german build quality is so damn great.

I own both prelude & e90, and honestly, do you think I'll prefer my honda over my BMW? Reality check here. I don't care how nice the honda becomes, BMW/MB/Audi will ALWAYS be on top of my list. And my E90 being first german vehicle I ever owned, I am in love with it. I don't think I can ever go back to honda/toyota. This however, won't make me a cocky german fanboy.

And when the hell did I ever say about anyone being 12 yrs old? You sir, don't have any idea of what is going on. Please, keep such plain fanboy-alike comments to yourself and try not to throw personal insults at somebody who wants the get the fact straighten out. Damn it, I just did the samething, huh?

Lux, YOU were the one did not use your language properly. YOU were the one calling nice E90 owners german car fanboy. No one is taking anything personal with you, it was you taking things too personal with others.
And I repeat again , I just got rid of my Honda's and it is YOU take your lousy interior racing Honda with you.
Go away.

[mBechara]

Japanese cars are grate cars for what they are….. But they are “wanna-be a BMW”. Just put in your mined that if you buy now a BMW then in 3 4 or 5 you will never regret such a car; however, if you buy the Mazda you might regret your decision in the future. I am not talking about the quality or reliability or power I am talking about this think you will only find in German cars. I have owned an e46 330 for over 4 years now and believe me when I tell you that until now every time I drive this car I love it even more then the one before. You will never get bored from a BMW!!!!! No mater how long you drive it. So If you can afford these extra 15000$ go for the BMW

Cheers

[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by cntlaw

Lux, YOU were the one did not use your language properly. YOU were the one calling nice E90 owners german car fanboy. No one is taking anything personal with you, it was you taking things too personal with others.
And I repeat again , I just got rid of my Honda's and it is YOU take your lousy interior racing Honda with you.
Go away.

1. Which "nice e90 owner" did I call a fanboy in this thread? Please name them. Make sure to include your name though.

2. Uhh, when did I take things personally? Please let me know. I think its you, who is seriously heart-broken because a E90 owner is standing up for a japanese manufacturer, and you really don't have any valid arguement/point to put up, except for keep giving me personal insults.

3. Yeah, you just got rid of your "lousy interior racing honda's", yet "( I drove a Prelude 200hp VTEC for 5.5 years love it )". Did ever say anything about me loving my honda's interior? I was just trying to get the fact straight, japanese manufacturer's interior quality isn't as bad as those german fans think.

4. Try to answer my questions above and in my earlier post.

Think before you post. Don't be biased because of what you drive.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

btw, sorry everyone for getting off-topic because of a stupid arguement.

Like I said in my earlier post, I would pick BMW 330i over mazdaspeed 6.

[Phoenix-IT]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

1. Which "nice e90 owner" did I call a fanboy in this thread? Please name them. Make sure to include your name though.

2. Uhh, when did I take things personally? Please let me know. I think its you, who is seriously heart-broken because a E90 owner is standing up for a japanese manufacturer, and you really don't have any valid arguement/point to put up, except for keep giving me personal insults.

3. Yeah, you just got rid of your "lousy interior racing honda's", yet "( I drove a Prelude 200hp VTEC for 5.5 years love it )". Did ever say anything about me loving my honda's interior? I was just trying to get the fact straight, japanese manufacturer's interior quality isn't as bad as those german fans think.

4. Try to answer my questions above and in my earlier post.

Think before you post. Don't be biased because of what you drive.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

btw, sorry everyone for getting off-topic because of a stupid arguement.

Like I said in my earlier post, I would pick BMW 330i over mazdaspeed 6.

I don't own a BMW... yet. But after driving two, I know that I liked it much more than my RSX... (As good as IT is.) So you can't exactly say that I'm biased because I own a BMW. Next summer I will have one, or an Audi.

It's an opinion, no more or less valid than your own. So stop acting like your's is credible and other's are not. I can accept the fact that the opinions of others may differ from my own without putting labels on them as a person because of that difference, can you?

Chad

[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by Phoenix-IT

I don't own a BMW... yet. But after driving two, I know that I liked it much more than my RSX... (As good as IT is.) So you can't exactly say that I'm biased because I own a BMW. Next summer I will have one, or an Audi.

It's an opinion, no more or less valid than your own. So stop acting like your's is credible and other's are not. I can accept the fact that the opinions of others may differ from my own without putting labels on them as a person because of that difference, can you?

Chad

I was acting like i was "credible", but neither of you posted worth-while reading facts, but rather posted random opinions generalizing everything.
"honda sucks" = uh, okay?
"MB/Audi interior is No.1" = right.......
"Audi interior > Honda interior" = another false.

Last Oct.2005 issue compared TL and Audi(and other cars), and TL out-performed Audi A4 in just about every category. Not to mention TL got higher rating in interior department than Audi.

Does this mean I am going to assume all Audi is worse than acura? Hell no, I don't think so.

And you don't need to OWN a bmw to be a "bmw biased" person. Just by looking at few of your posts decribe alot. Then again, that could be just my opinion. And I believe I have my rights to say that.

Obviously you have a RSX, and its nowhere close to bmw.
I am WELL familiar with RSX and the K20A. I was close to getting one before, and 4 of my best friends own base 5spds and type-s. Its good car for its price, and for what it is in my opinion(even though RSX sales is horrible, and acura is considering dropping the RSX). No reason for you to compare your RSX to a BMW and bash on honda in general. Not to mention the RSX is not the best honda either. 3 series isn't in the same class as RSX anyway, TL is more like it.

I love both German cars and Japanese cars. both have their pros and cons.
While BMW is a great driving machine, japanese car like a IS350 can be a great alternative for cheaper, and more reliable solution. Not that i'll ever trade my bmw for one. There is no reason for random bashing on japanese vehicles(i.e. "If its japanese, its crap").

You see what Im trying to say? Have some pride in what you drive man. While I do give you thumbs up for NOT being a fanboy of what you drive, no reason for such harsh comments.

[blueStreak]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

I explained the similar theory in my other post. I also said similar things that you said in other honda forum I go to, and I got flamed badly.

So help me understand here.

Ok, I'll try to explain my point better. You were probably flamed by clueless posters so I wouldn't worry about it.

Originally Posted by lux.sh

My thoughts------------------
I wouldn't say "useless as it gets". Then how can you really measure manufacturer's production car performance if real life racing experiences/records doesn't prove anything? Not to mention prices of these TSXs and Mazda 6s aren't even close to the prices of BMWs.

That's not how WC works. What is the cost of the TSX and Mazda 6 vs the BMWs after prepped for competition? WC cars go through extensive modification and all of them are much more than you'd pay for a loaded 330i at your local BMW dealer. WC cars aren't anything like a production car and therefore useless to use as benchmarks.

Originally Posted by lux.sh

Level field, ok. http://www.world-challenge.com/carfacts.html
so they have regulations. Given equal mods and tuning, its up to the drivers and vehicle's potential/performance. I guess we can either say; A. Brand A drivers can't drive. B. When both tuned, car A usually is capable of out-handling/performing car B.

Equal mods and equal tuning? Definitely not, have a look at the specs of the cars:
http://www.world-challenge.com/competitors/vts.html
Do you really think the cars are all equal and it only comes down to driver A's skill vs driver B's? There is no such thing when you compare across different makes/models which is the basic flaw in WC.

Look what happened when the CTS-V hit GT last year. They were making ridiculous adjustments to the Audi's and CTS-Vs in an attempt to make everything fair for all drivers. It was a complete joke. Check out this link:
http://www.world-challenge.com/compe...bulletins.html
and pull down the first 4 pdfs in the SPEED GT. Track what happens to the Audi RS6 and CTS-V as the season progresses. Gee, the CTS-Vs stomped the field and coasted through most of the first couple of races. That's not fair, so how do we fix it? Let's throw on a 20% more restrictive restrictor plate, lower their rev limit by 900 RPM, and throw on an 200 pounds. Oh no, now the RS6s need to be "adjusted" to make things fair. Let's throw on another 100 pounds. Oops, that wasn't enough, so let's throw on yet another 50 pounds, drop the redline by 200 RPM and drop boost from .7 bar to .55 bar. The cars are fair and equal? I think not. Good example of bragging rights for the production versions? Not really.

[lux.sh]

Good read! awesome info.

Originally Posted by blueStreak

That's not how WC works. What is the cost of the TSX and Mazda 6 vs the BMWs after prepped for competition? WC cars go through extensive modification and all of them are much more than you'd pay for a loaded 330i at your local BMW dealer. WC cars aren't anything like a production car and therefore useless to use as benchmarks.

So if mod-friendly(cheaper too) japanese cars had to dump that much $$$$, I assume BMW vehicles dumped even more dollars to modify them. Correct? I mean, I don't think only TSXs/Mazda6s were modifed in the league. Right? So price to price comparison really isn't valid, but if you be general, chances are BMW ended up spending more money. Which doesn't really matter anyway.

Equal mods and equal tuning? Definitely not, have a look at the specs of the cars:
http://www.world-challenge.com/competitors/vts.html
Do you really think the cars are all equal and it only comes down to driver A's skill vs driver B's? There is no such thing when you compare across different makes/models which is the basic flaw in WC.

Look what happened when the CTS-V hit GT last year. They were making ridiculous adjustments to the Audi's and CTS-Vs in an attempt to make everything fair for all drivers. It was a complete joke. Check out this link:
http://www.world-challenge.com/compe...bulletins.html
and pull down the first 4 pdfs in the SPEED GT. Track what happens to the Audi RS6 and CTS-V as the season progresses. Gee, the CTS-Vs stomped the field and coasted through most of the first couple of races. That's not fair, so how do we fix it? Let's throw on a 20% more restrictive restrictor plate, lower their rev limit by 900 RPM, and throw on an 200 pounds. Oh no, now the RS6s need to be "adjusted" to make things fair. Let's throw on another 100 pounds. Oops, that wasn't enough, so let's throw on yet another 50 pounds, drop the redline by 200 RPM and drop boost from .7 bar to .55 bar. The cars are fair and equal? I think not. Good example of bragging rights for the production versions? Not really.

Well, didn't they do all that "adjustments" to make it equal/fair to race against each other? You see most adjustments were made to power figure, not much on suspension figure. Weight adjustsments are there, but not as bad as all these power adjustments. Most all wear standard required tire/wheel combo. Is there such data for any suspension adjustments made?


Sorry for such questions. I really want to learn about this subject, so when another tsx or mazda owner comes up to me talking crap about how they handle better than my E90, I know what to say back.

[cntlaw]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

1. Which "nice e90 owner" did I call a fanboy in this thread? Please name them. Make sure to include your name though.

2. Uhh, when did I take things personally? Please let me know. I think its you, who is seriously heart-broken because a E90 owner is standing up for a japanese manufacturer, and you really don't have any valid arguement/point to put up, except for keep giving me personal insults.

3. Yeah, you just got rid of your "lousy interior racing honda's", yet "( I drove a Prelude 200hp VTEC for 5.5 years love it )". Did ever say anything about me loving my honda's interior? I was just trying to get the fact straight, japanese manufacturer's interior quality isn't as bad as those german fans think.

4. Try to answer my questions above and in my earlier post.

Think before you post. Don't be biased because of what you drive.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

btw, sorry everyone for getting off-topic because of a stupid arguement.

Like I said in my earlier post, I would pick BMW 330i over mazdaspeed 6.

Lux, bluestreak,

Phoenix-IT was kind to show you a photo of a nice Audi interior vs a cheap Honda. You never wanted to admit to the fact and now (both of you) started talking nonsense and pretend how much you know about putting $ to mod a Jap car better than a 330i just because you think you know the differences. Show all of us a photo of your Japanese car and let's see what mods what have got there before you start acting like a teacher to all the E90 owners here.

[lux.sh]

CNTLAW,

bluestreak has nothing to do with this. He is actually defending BMW, while I am asking him questions. It just proves how you don't know what the HELL is going on. We are just having a discussion about SCCA challenge which you probably have no idea about. I am done with you, and I have no reason to argue with you anymore. You don't even read the post, or if you do, you are not understanding them very well, you can't even answer any of my question, yet it seems like you are just keep on replying back with pointless comments.

It was nice talking to you. You are now in my ignore list. Please do the same for me. Thank you.

-sean

[BMW Lawman]

This thread has deteriorated into a bunch of BS. The last time this happened the thread simply disappeared. Hopefully that will happen again......soon.

[cntlaw]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

CNTLAW,

bluestreak has nothing to do with this. He is actually defending BMW, while I am asking him questions. It just proves how you don't know what the HELL is going on. We are just having a discussion about SCCA challenge which you probably have no idea about. I am done with you, and I have no reason to argue with you anymore. You don't even read the post, or if you do, you are not understanding them very well, you can't even answer any of my question, yet it seems like you are just keep on replying back with pointless comments.

It was nice talking to you. You are now in my ignore list. Please do the same for me. Thank you.

-sean

Lux, ok. let's blame the internet communication breakdown
we won't take all too seriously. have a nice day.
cnt

[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by cntlaw

Lux, ok. let's blame the internet communication breakdown
we won't take all too seriously. have a nice day.
cnt

much better.