XBimmers X1   XBimmers X1
  XBimmers X1

Go Back   XBimmers | BMW X1 Forum > BMW X1 Forums > General BMW X1 (E84) Forum

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-17-2017, 01:06 PM   #23
nicknaz
Lieutenant General
nicknaz's Avatar
3183
Rep
10,509
Posts

Drives: C6Z
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
That is just plain incorrect.

What "fail safes" are you referring to, and why do you think a piggyback would have anything to do with their functionality?

The stock timing control, knock control, etc. are all still in place with a piggyback. If anything, the flash tunes alter the stock, conservative timing curves.

Not that flash tunes don't have their benefits, or that I prefer piggies...but let's keep the facts straight.




A FMIC isn't gaining you power. It'll stave off heat soak longer, so you'll have your peak power more consistently. A DP on a tuned car is going to gain you somewhere in the 15 whp peak, but sometimes more significant gains in the midrange. I do agree it can be de-prioritized for many people though, as the tunes are really where the majority of the power is at. But DP gains are noticeable, for sure.



That's the thing. It's all E90 xdrive underneath.

It's simply a raised 335 xdrive hatch back, or a smaller 335 touring. It is not an SUV at all. It doesn't weight significantly more than a 335 xdrive sedan, and some models weight less, in fact.

In that sense, it made no sense for BMW to raise an E90 hatch a couple inches and call it a crossover. Thus, it actually makes a lot of sense to lower this car back down, unlike an actual SUV like the X3 or X5, imho.

Closest thing to the 335 touring that many of us want, and BMW never gave us.
Hey man, check out this thread (I used to have a z435) http://e89.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=936224

great gains from FMIC and cobb dynos showing gains from FMIC

http://www.cobbtuning.com/bmw-n54-power-gains/

It's possible this is N54 specific info that I'm incorrectly mapping to N55.

Regarding piggyback vs flash tune, my understanding has been that piggyback is "tricking" the ECU by intercepting signals, so because ECU is not aware of the actual engine load, it can't advance or retard ignition effectively and it will only retard timing when the knock sensor detects something (e.g. piggyback can't alter fueling and timing at a very granular level). That's why BMS uses the "back end" DME flash (e.g. flash tune) in addition to the piggyback.

When i was looking into RB turbos for my N54 days, the ideal setup seemed to be combine both, such as cobb flash tune to control fuel, timing, vanos, and JB4 piggyback to control boost and methanol (with the methanol being the key trigger to add JB4)

I think for tune only, it probably doesn't matter between JB4 vs. Cobb, and the nuance matters if its a more heavily modded situation. I always would like to go flash tune whenever possible for the timing and fuel control (i.e. I am using EPL flash tune on my 996TT right now)

39xx lb car is too much for me, I get that it is a great car and does well to hide the weight. Even my 34xx lb 996, I am thinking about maybe converting AWD to RWD to get the weight down even lower

full disclosure, in my garage, the 996 (and F80 M3 before that) got the modding attention, the X135 continues to be a great (stock) family hauler.
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2017, 01:15 PM   #24
nicknaz
Lieutenant General
nicknaz's Avatar
3183
Rep
10,509
Posts

Drives: C6Z
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidgamer View Post
That's pretty easy to do. What (*cough* stock) cars do that? Nissan GT-R? maybe the new Camaro and Mustang top-end models?

It's a hot-hatch in disguise. It makes the GTI look boy-racer in comparison. It's a sleeper, like that Subie we had. It has a usable back seat. Is it really that bad?

When I shopped for cars, the fastest ones were mid-5s. Camaros (the interior space was a tad too tight), Audi A3 and GTI. GTI was best bang-for-the-buck although a deal on a Camaro could even be better. So, I could have gotten something somewhat faster (but still not with a 125+ trap speed). What do you suppose I should have bought and at what price? I decided to look used and try to save further. Now I could easily get into a BMW. Seemed like a good idea.
Hey, I re-read my post, I wanted to clarify that I love my X135, I just don't think it is worth it for modding.

I am not sure what your price point was, my reference point for a ~6s 0-60 mph car is an NC mazda miata, and you can get those for ~$15k, with already a lot of choice handling mods. that's a really great sporty car for very low cost, IMHO

Another thing to consider is the C5 z06 goes for ~$20k now, and those are ~117mph trap speed cars, and C6 z06 is in the $30-40k range and that's a ~125mph trap speed car
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2017, 01:24 PM   #25
PrematureApex
Colonel
840
Rep
2,400
Posts

Drives: N55 X1, N54 135, s54 m3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Philadelphia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
Regarding piggyback vs flash tune, my understanding has been that piggyback is "tricking" the ECU by intercepting signals, so because ECU is not aware of the actual engine load, it can't advance or retard ignition effectively and it will only retard timing when the knock sensor detects something (e.g. piggyback can't alter fueling and timing at a very granular level). That's why BMS uses the "back end" DME flash (e.g. flash tune) in addition to the piggyback.
It's worse than you thought....

You stated: The piggyback can't alter fueling and timing at a very granular level. You should probably know that piggybacks do not alter timing or fueling (sans a flex-fuel wire install), at all. That's all the factory DME. And it has been shown, time and time again, that the factory DME is actually very, very good at timing control, hence why the JB4 works so well and has been so successful. Yes, the timing control is limited to the DME and its use of the knock sensor. But it works well. Knock is not an issue.

But you mentioned the DME not knowing actual engine load, presumably as an attempt to identify a "fail safe" that's not effective when you use a piggyback. But aren't you're ignoring that the aftermarket reflash is going to have to alter that level. So perhaps your factory "fail safe" wouldn't be retained anyway?

Regardless, no one is arguing against flash tunes, they are superior in a number of ways. Yes, flash tunes are often used underneath a piggy in order to implement a more advantageous timing curve while retaining some of the things the piggies do well.

No question 3900 lbs. is a lot. That wasn't the point. The point was, it weighs the same as a 335 xdrive sedan. So are you suggesting that it's wasted for anyone to put a suspension or a swaybar on one of those? BMWs staple sports sedan?

A better handling car is a better handing car, period. Aesthetics aside. Why would you have an issue with someone wanting to make their family hauler drive better? You only like better handling if you're driving a sports car?
__________________
'02 S54 M3 (500/500 GC/Koni)
'08 N54 135 (JB4, DCI, BMW PS/Bilstein B6s, H&R M3 FSB, Strongflex FCABs)
'14 N55 X1 (JB4, BMS DP, BMS Intake, Alpina TCU reflash, H&R Sports, Bilstein B6s, E93 M3 RSB, Strongflex FCABs, baby seat)
'08 N54 535xi touring (Bilstein B6s, Downpipes, MHD tune, baby seat)

Last edited by PrematureApex; 02-17-2017 at 01:41 PM..
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2017, 01:35 PM   #26
Vidgamer
Private First Class
Vidgamer's Avatar
10
Rep
128
Posts

Drives: BMW X1 e84
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Orlando, Florida

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
...
39xx lb car is too much for me, I get that it is a great car and does well to hide the weight. Even my 34xx lb 996, I am thinking about maybe converting AWD to RWD to get the weight down even lower
...
Well, according to Motor Trend, the sDrive model saves up to 300lbs (over xDrive with 35).

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/bmw/x...1-first-drive/

Mind you, I have no options, so I'm close to the 35xx figure. Still, it's a bit heavy, I guess, for a sporty car.
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2017, 01:44 PM   #27
PrematureApex
Colonel
840
Rep
2,400
Posts

Drives: N55 X1, N54 135, s54 m3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Philadelphia

iTrader: (0)

So not only do I disagree with your definition of "fast", but now I may have to consider if I disagree with your definition of "sporty".

Is a base 4 banger X1, "sporty". Hmmm...

We could go on all day about that....
__________________
'02 S54 M3 (500/500 GC/Koni)
'08 N54 135 (JB4, DCI, BMW PS/Bilstein B6s, H&R M3 FSB, Strongflex FCABs)
'14 N55 X1 (JB4, BMS DP, BMS Intake, Alpina TCU reflash, H&R Sports, Bilstein B6s, E93 M3 RSB, Strongflex FCABs, baby seat)
'08 N54 535xi touring (Bilstein B6s, Downpipes, MHD tune, baby seat)
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2017, 03:21 PM   #28
Alfisti
Brigadier General
6453
Rep
3,009
Posts

Drives: 2008 Saab 9-3 Combi
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada

iTrader: (0)

Everything weighs shit tons these days, so damned heavy.
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2017, 04:21 PM   #29
Vidgamer
Private First Class
Vidgamer's Avatar
10
Rep
128
Posts

Drives: BMW X1 e84
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Orlando, Florida

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
....

Is a base 4 banger X1, "sporty". Hmmm...

We could go on all day about that....
You're no fun!

WELL, I like my sleeper.
Appreciate 0
      02-17-2017, 04:41 PM   #30
nicknaz
Lieutenant General
nicknaz's Avatar
3183
Rep
10,509
Posts

Drives: C6Z
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
No question 3900 lbs. is a lot. That wasn't the point. The point was, it weighs the same as a 335 xdrive sedan. So are you suggesting that it's wasted for anyone to put a suspension or a swaybar on one of those? BMWs staple sports sedan?

A better handling car is a better handing car, period. Aesthetics aside. Why would you have an issue with someone wanting to make their family hauler drive better? You only like better handling if you're driving a sports car?
I do think a 3900lb car of any sort is not a great idea as a sports car. The poster boy is the e63 wagon. At 4400lb it's a porker and hard to hide the weight in the corners. Loved the acceleration though (I pulled away from a gallardo at mosport with 2 child seats in the back!)

Life is tough for Bmw if the staple sport sedan is 3900lb awd car. Luckily it's a 3500lb rwd car or some sort (m2/3/4)

Yes my bias is to keep the family hauler comfy and focus sport on the sports car. I tried the do it all route with f80 m3 and it isn't as fun for me as the always on focus of a sports car.

Btw, how much smaller are Sti, golf r or focus rs than an X1? Those are super interesting awd hatches to mod
Appreciate 0
      02-18-2017, 08:36 AM   #31
PrematureApex
Colonel
840
Rep
2,400
Posts

Drives: N55 X1, N54 135, s54 m3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Philadelphia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post

Btw, how much smaller are Sti, golf r or focus rs than an X1? Those are super interesting awd hatches to mod
And that's the nail on the head. It's not that much bigger. Noticeably bigger, but not hugely.

I've owned 5 WRXs and STIs combined, and won't own another one. The EJ isn't reliable enough to play with. And the STI isn't sold as a hatch anymore.

The R and RS weren't out when the N55 X1 came out...so there's that. And the X1 has some more potential in the engine department.

But yeah, it you were lining up in 2015 to buy a new $50k N55 X1 with the intention of lower it and upping the power in an attempt to make it a 335 hatch...well...the Golf R w/ a roof box certainly should give you some cause for pause. Make that a lot of cause.

Regarding comfort, I'll just say our X1 on H&Rs/bilsteins/M3 rear sway on non-runflat tires isn't more offensive in the ride department than stock. Handles much more tidily though. There really is no drawback.

We have our quick N55 small wagon.
__________________
'02 S54 M3 (500/500 GC/Koni)
'08 N54 135 (JB4, DCI, BMW PS/Bilstein B6s, H&R M3 FSB, Strongflex FCABs)
'14 N55 X1 (JB4, BMS DP, BMS Intake, Alpina TCU reflash, H&R Sports, Bilstein B6s, E93 M3 RSB, Strongflex FCABs, baby seat)
'08 N54 535xi touring (Bilstein B6s, Downpipes, MHD tune, baby seat)

Last edited by PrematureApex; 02-18-2017 at 08:42 AM..
Appreciate 0
      02-18-2017, 11:47 AM   #32
nicknaz
Lieutenant General
nicknaz's Avatar
3183
Rep
10,509
Posts

Drives: C6Z
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

Yup that's my thought exactly! X1 35 for $50k to mod is not a great path vs what's out there.

I admit to being tempted by getting a "square" setup of sticker tires for our x135 but I always have groceries or my dog in the car when I drive it anyway so I'm always grannying it!
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:20 PM.




xbimmers
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST