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      06-02-2018, 06:44 AM   #639
Rampant
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Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
And yet, this is the guy you quoted with your first post with any kind of substance....
True. The subject matter is identical, though.

Perhaps I should have multi-quoted? In hindsight that would probably have been better.

I didn't consider it at the time, assuming that the mental link would be formed in the reader's mind. My bad, I suppose, and also my bad for not realising that this thread had very long legs and that "linked" posts could get masked in the sheer volume of posts.

Important to note that I have never denied knife violence exists in the UK. Also important to note that it wasn't me who brought a knife to a gunfight.

I didn't intend to get embroiled. Just wanted to set the record straight that "UK school knife crime" is in no way comparable to "USA school gun crime" and that recent "rising" UK knife crime is by no means a consequence of the scarcity of guns, or the "gun ban" as was implied in that post.

Any other observations about my posts that I can explain further?

Yours Aye

Mark H
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      06-02-2018, 08:14 AM   #640
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Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
FYI. Your posts are way too long. I stopped reading them

Think Succinct

Succinct doesn't work here. I get taken out of context. Perhaps deliberate. Perhaps not. Which means to defend against being misrepresented I need to explain in detail. Otherwise the thread gets derailed by syntax arguments like the endemic thing is being taken out of context and argued. Not cool.

Here is my explanation of why I used endemic:

In the USA, mass shootings in schools is endemic.

In the UK, mass knife attacks in schools is not endemic. The first of its kind took place this year.

As a direct consequence, discussions are already taking place in the UK and directed actions will surely follow... Some of that discussion is addressing how to control knives, while other coherent measures are also being discussed in parallel. Meanwhile in the USA...in the wake of Texas... the loudest voice is that of the gun rights lobby (witness the voices in this thread) who demand that gun control is not an option, etc. The two approaches couldn't be farther apart.

Anyhoo, I'm pretty sure people already understood my point and rather just wanted to twist the writer's intended meaning of the word endemic to suit their own agenda. I get it. It's the Internet. It happens.

Slàinte Mhath

Mark H
Hey Mark,

Wow, I took a day off yesterday and missed tonnes

I understand your points and get where you are coming from. I know it seems that the default is gun rights protection, and to the very left it is often the case, but that size of the population is not as big as it seems, they just shout really loud. The right and the middle far out number it.

Hopefully people here get what I am about to say, has everyone heard that saying, "Can't see the trees because of the forest". Gun control is kinda like that. What we haven't mentioned and to me what the true issue with controlling guns is the $31.8 billion dollars a year its represents to the USA economy. To me, how can one restrict the 300 million guns in circulation, restrict the sale of guns and the ancillaries in future (ammo) and not effect the $31.8 billion? The lobbyist's are the ones keeping the guns going.

At the sametime I support responsible gun ownership which makes up the 99.99% of the gun population.

It's an exceptionally complex issue.
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      06-02-2018, 06:30 PM   #641
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Originally Posted by cmyE93M3 View Post
Hey Mark,

Wow, I took a day off yesterday and missed tonnes

I understand your points and get where you are coming from. I know it seems that the default is gun rights protection, and to the very left it is often the case, but that size of the population is not as big as it seems, they just shout really loud. The right and the middle far out number it.

Hopefully people here get what I am about to say, has everyone heard that saying, "Can't see the trees because of the forest". Gun control is kinda like that. What we haven't mentioned and to me what the true issue with controlling guns is the $31.8 billion dollars a year its represents to the USA economy. To me, how can one restrict the 300 million guns in circulation, restrict the sale of guns and the ancillaries in future (ammo) and not effect the $31.8 billion? The lobbyist's are the ones keeping the guns going.

At the sametime I support responsible gun ownership which makes up the 99.99% of the gun population.

It's an exceptionally complex issue.
Complex issue is true enough... Exceptionally complex. I absolutely agree.

This $31.8 billion of which you speak. Just imagine for a moment that guns were banned. It's a fantasy I know, but indulge me.

If guns were banned in this fantasy, that $31,8 billion of which you speak would not go "unspent". It would be spent on something else, wouldn't it? The overall economy would actually be completely unchanged. Of course, the firearm companies would make far less profit, but other industries elsewhere would benefit from the public spending their disposable income on other things. But the economy would not be altered in any meaningful way. To imply that it would is just false.

Invoking the words "but guns represent $31. 8 billion to the economy", therefore, is certainly no reason to discount a discussion on gun control measures.

If, as you say, "the right and middle" far outnumber the shouty gun rights lobbyists, then why doesn't true democracy prevail? <- that, my friend, is what is so confusing to an outsider looking in on the USA.

Presumably, every individual must realise that gun controls might prove to be *part* of a coherent set of measures that could prevent, or minimise mass school shootings. Anyone who disagrees with that possibility is either deluded or deliberately lying. No individual can know prior to even making the attempt.

Given that it could be a possibility that mass school shootings might be minimised by some semblance of control of firearms, and bearing in mind what you said about the right and middle being the majority, why hasn't the attempt already been made?

On the matter of the 300,000,000 guns already in public ownership - is there a record of where these guns are? I presume not... Due to private sales being largely unregistered and unchecked? Does this seem to be a reasonable situation?

In principle, I too would support responsible gun ownership. On the other hand, however, with 300,000,000 guns in public ownership, it takes such an infinitesimally small percentage of irresponsible owners to make bad things happen - bad things that presumably would have far less chance of happening if that ownership number was halved or reduced by a factor of 10...

I'd be grateful for your thoughts
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      06-02-2018, 07:35 PM   #642
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Originally Posted by Rampant View Post
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Originally Posted by cmyE93M3 View Post
Hey Mark,

Wow, I took a day off yesterday and missed tonnes

I understand your points and get where you are coming from. I know it seems that the default is gun rights protection, and to the very left it is often the case, but that size of the population is not as big as it seems, they just shout really loud. The right and the middle far out number it.

Hopefully people here get what I am about to say, has everyone heard that saying, "Can't see the trees because of the forest". Gun control is kinda like that. What we haven't mentioned and to me what the true issue with controlling guns is the $31.8 billion dollars a year its represents to the USA economy. To me, how can one restrict the 300 million guns in circulation, restrict the sale of guns and the ancillaries in future (ammo) and not effect the $31.8 billion? The lobbyist's are the ones keeping the guns going.

At the sametime I support responsible gun ownership which makes up the 99.99% of the gun population.

It's an exceptionally complex issue.
Complex issue is true enough... Exceptionally complex. I absolutely agree.

This $31.8 billion of which you speak. Just imagine for a moment that guns were banned. It's a fantasy I know, but indulge me.

If guns were banned in this fantasy, that $31,8 billion of which you speak would not go "unspent". It would be spent on something else, wouldn't it? The overall economy would actually be completely unchanged. Of course, the firearm companies would make far less profit, but other industries elsewhere would benefit from the public spending their disposable income on other things. But the economy would not be altered in any meaningful way. To imply that it would is just false.

Invoking the words "but guns represent $31. 8 billion to the economy", therefore, is certainly no reason to discount a discussion on gun control measures.

If, as you say, "the right and middle" far outnumber the shouty gun rights lobbyists, then why doesn't true democracy prevail? <- that, my friend, is what is so confusing to an outsider looking in on the USA.

Presumably, every individual must realise that gun controls might prove to be *part* of a coherent set of measures that could prevent, or minimise mass school shootings. Anyone who disagrees with that possibility is either deluded or deliberately lying. No individual can know prior to even making the attempt.

Given that it could be a possibility that mass school shootings might be minimised by some semblance of control of firearms, and bearing in mind what you said about the right and middle being the majority, why hasn't the attempt already been made?

On the matter of the 300,000,000 guns already in public ownership - is there a record of where these guns are? I presume not... Due to private sales being largely unregistered and unchecked? Does this seem to be a reasonable situation?

In principle, I too would support responsible gun ownership. On the other hand, however, with 300,000,000 guns in public ownership, it takes such an infinitesimally small percentage of irresponsible owners to make bad things happen - bad things that presumably would have far less chance of happening if that ownership number was halved or reduced by a factor of 10...

I'd be grateful for your thoughts
Hey Mark,

You mention the move of the $31.8 billion to something else, if guns we're banned (I am indulging as you asked). Economies don't move like that, think of all the people the industry supports, the manufacturers are small potatoes in comparison to everything else it touches. I brought it up originally because it's a point of democracy. You further mention my point of the right and the middle out numbering the lefty side and you added to it how come democracy does not prevail and how to an outsider it seems odd.

Well, that's the $31.8 billion again. American politics is very unique compared to other countries, like where I live in Canada. We mirror the British Parliament methods and rules. American politics not so much, it is comprised of a totally different set of rules, it is an epic creation to be honest where corporate plays a strong role in. I won't turn this into a political discussion per sé, but how it relates to guns is something like this. The person-hood of the corporation is represented by lobbyist's who lobby the government officials through contributions and voting assurances. Example, NRA would approach a candidate of any voted in level of government role, promise member support, describe how their organization funds taxes in their state, blah, blah, blah and here is a contribution in the form of a cheque <- (Cdn spelling of check) for $,$$$.$$ amount of dollars. Depending on how important the candidate is, decimal and comma move.

I am a quasi outsider as I live in Canada but work in the USA. I love the good'ole USA, it's my second home and I have grown towards American(ism) as it is hard to resist.

If I was to be a bit facetious, you mentioned way back Americans love guns more than there kids because it isn't acting fast enough. The truest sentence would of been:

Americans love their family first, their country second, their Capitalism third, and then their 2nd Amendment which incorporates the guns and leftist's use as a vale.

I don't mean to speak for Americans, but I believe in the extremely simplistic description above, they would generally support it kinda works like that. Of course, the mainstream votes as it wishes, but in the case of a Presidency, the campaigns are funded to the tune of several hundred million dollars. You can buy a lot of free speech for that kinda bucks and sway mass opinion. Capitalism...it's what put America on top and what will keep there, but nothing is 100% perfect.
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      06-02-2018, 08:17 PM   #643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rampant View Post
What I'm getting from this thread:

1. People willing to have an inappropriate laugh in the context of school children being shot and killed in school.

2. Largely, that many Americans value gun rights as a far higher priority than the safety of American children.

3. A tacit acceptance that school shootings are simply a part of - an acceptable consequence of - American culture.

4. America "does have gun control" but that any suggestion that gun control could be improved is met with a proactive stubbornness to even accept an adult discussion about it: a fundamental refusal to even discuss ideas and an amazing tenacity to steer the discussion elsewhere in order not to address the elephant in the room.

5. Astonishing cherry picking of statistics - and the same mindset of choosing deliberately to take out of context quotations.

6. Largely, that many Americans value gun rights as a far higher priority than the safety of American children.


Point 2 was so important that it needed repeating.

For the children

Mark H

I don't own a gun, or plan to. I am for gun reform, and assault rifle ban. But with all that, I am not sure that will make my kids any safer in schools.

These are not impulse shootings, these are planned attacks. These people wanted to kill others. If they didn't have guns they would find something else, and in this day in age, that something else could end up killing more people instantly than a gun.

I feel like we need to put less focus on the weapon, and put more focus on why these people want to kill, and how/why they are getting to that breaking point. If it is cultural, medication, stress, etc...The only way to really limit the problem is by finding out why the thoughts are happening.

Guns were just as easy if not easier to get over the last few decades, but we didn't see this many planned shootings.
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      06-02-2018, 09:09 PM   #644
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It is a complex subject this gun control thing but if we keep trying, we'll get it pretty close to right. Those that claim it is so complex that we cannot try and get any sort of results seem a little myopic. In my opinion, North Korea is another complex subject, not easily solved with their nuclear weapons and our track record of regime change, but at least we are trying. May not get it right for a long time, but we will if it is a win-win.
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      06-02-2018, 09:48 PM   #645
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It is a complex subject this gun control thing but if we keep trying, we'll get it pretty close to right. Those that claim it is so complex that we cannot try and get any sort of results seem a little myopic. In my opinion, North Korea is another complex subject, not easily solved with their nuclear weapons and our track record of regime change, but at least we are trying. May not get it right for a long time, but we will if it is a win-win.
You sir, win the internet today. Congratulations!!

These are two of the most complex subjects and require more than knee-jerk, emotional, highly-charged and politicized pseudo-solutions. We have to find a way to take back our society from the unproductive extremists on both sides.

Cheers-mk
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      06-02-2018, 09:53 PM   #646
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
You sir, win the internet today. Congratulations!!

These are two of the most complex subjects and require more than knee-jerk, emotional, highly-charged and politicized pseudo-solutions. We have to find a way to take back our society from the unproductive extremists on both sides.

Cheers-mk
I am deeply honored sir, to be a two time winner of your prestigious award,and will continue to try to spread civility, despite my occasional lapses. We are all humans and we need to find things that unite us, coz all this anger is killing me!
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      06-02-2018, 09:59 PM   #647
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I am deeply honored sir, to be a two time winner of your prestigious award,and will continue to try to spread civility, despite my occasional lapses. We are all humans and we need to find things that unite us, coz all this anger is killing me!
Same here. There are lots of smart, successful, and passionate people on this site and if we can't find a way to keep it together, what hope is there for our society. I fell into that pattern and have made the same effort to be more positive. The toxic politics have been spreading like a deadly tonic and I'm doing my best to be a little better.

Cheers, my friend - mk
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