Big crash on Nürburgring between 911 GT3 RS + BMW M2 (didn't use blinkers)

[NSXR]

This thread is absolute proof that people don't understand judgement. I suppose most of you walk into a bar hoping you don't see someone drinking alcohol as well.

1. This is a 2-lane road during TF.
2. There is no rule requiring signaling during TF.
3. The BMW ultimately hit the Porsche, but the Porsche caused the incident to happen with over-aggressive driving into a disappearing wedge.

This accident was 100% caused by the Porsche driver, and to place the blame on the BMW driver for not checking his mirrors is just ignorance.

You guys keep forgetting that the BMW driver was setting up for corners at speed, and never saw the Porsche at all. The Porsche driver SAW this at the previous corner and proceeded to drive into a disappearing gap anyway.

The person with the knowledge has the responsibility.

[G MONEY]

Nobody fault

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by NSXR

This thread is absolute proof that people don't understand judgement. I suppose most of you walk into a bar hoping you don't see someone drinking alcohol as well.

1. This is a 2-lane road during TF.
2. There is no rule requiring signaling during TF.
3. The BMW ultimately hit the Porsche, but the Porsche caused the incident to happen with over-aggressive driving into a disappearing wedge.

This accident was 100% caused by the Porsche driver, and to place the blame on the BMW driver for not checking his mirrors is just ignorance.

You guys keep forgetting that the BMW driver was setting up for corners at speed, and never saw the Porsche at all. The Porsche driver SAW this at the previous corner and proceeded to drive into a disappearing gap anyway.

The person with the knowledge has the responsibility.

^So much this.

I was going to put up a reply since many quoted one of my replies about this being the BMW driver's fault because the BMW driver moved to the right. They're ignoring the fact that this is what is done to set up a proper line into any corner. Everything you said is 100% correct.

Since the staff at the Ring has been adjusting rules due to changes in dynamics with what's happening on track recently, they should in my opinion, re-evaluate their rules during a TF. If they want to run it as a public road, fine. But make it 100% a public road. I don't know of any public road where there are passing zones in a corner. There should be zero passing in corners and only on the straights. And in one of the videos posted here, that two "lane" road directive was violated even further when I saw cars in a corner three wide. Yes, yes. The videos are compilations of the worst incidents on the high risk corners. But it only takes that one time to be a highlight in one of these videos.

This thread has been educational for me as I had no idea about how a TF day is run. Knowing now, I'd think it's absolutely insane to take any risks on track and personally I wouldn't even go on "track" on a TF day; especially with a high dollar sports car.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by NSXR

This thread is absolute proof that people don't understand judgement. I suppose most of you walk into a bar hoping you don't see someone drinking alcohol as well.

1. This is a 2-lane road during TF.
2. There is no rule requiring signaling during TF.
3. The BMW ultimately hit the Porsche, but the Porsche caused the incident to happen with over-aggressive driving into a disappearing wedge.

This accident was 100% caused by the Porsche driver, and to place the blame on the BMW driver for not checking his mirrors is just ignorance.

You guys keep forgetting that the BMW driver was setting up for corners at speed, and never saw the Porsche at all. The Porsche driver SAW this at the previous corner and proceeded to drive into a disappearing gap anyway.

The person with the knowledge has the responsibility.

So you're saying the two lane road rules apply but it is the Porsche's fault because the BMW was clearly taking a racing line ("setting up for corners at speed") which would be to the left of the road.

If the whole two lane thing is real it is unquestionably the BMW driver's fault, he should be tot he right at all times unless passing and he wasn't passing. The only way the it is the Porsche's fault (and it is 80/20 the Porsche's fault imho) is if you acknowledge the whole two lane thing is not enforced and the Porsche should have expected the BMW to potentially not be to the right.

It cannot be both.

[RMNB]

Originally Posted by fourthchirpin

overtaking driver assumes most of the risk while overtaking. That section was a poor place to overtake.

M2 driver did not see the person over taking him and thats how this happened.

...did not see the person! HAH! If you're on a track driving with your hair on fire then how about CONSTANTY checking your mirrors and be 100% aware of cars in front , beside and BEHIND you!! F1 driver he is not nor is it a video game hence crash-n-burn.

[NSXR]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

...The BMW driver's fault because the BMW driver moved to the right. They're ignoring the fact that this is what is done to set up a proper line into any corner.

Exactly.

The Porsche was in the BMW driver's rear view for a total of 11 seconds before the accident (barring any blind spot time), and when you subtract cornering and corner set-up time where you NEED your eyes on the road, you're talking about probably less than 6 seconds of actual rearview mirror awareness that the BMW driver missed...on a 10 minute lap. That's nothing. I'd wager that most people commenting that the BMW driver should have been more aware have never been to the Ring or tried to drive a set of corners like this at speed, they're just watching videos and making an armchair assessment. Misha drives it multiple times a day and has for years and I've seen him caught unaware many times. That's times 10 for the average quick-pace driver.

Originally Posted by zx10guy

They should in my opinion, re-evaluate their rules during a TF. If they want to run it as a public road, fine. But make it 100% a public road. I don't know of any public road where there are passing zones in a corner. There should be zero passing in corners and only on the straights.

I agree with your sentiment, in general, but I don't think that'll ever happen because a.) it'd be a logistical nightmare, and b.) Germans don't care to babysit people, especially in an obviously dangerous environment. They're more of a "drive at your own risk" lot.

Originally Posted by Alfisti

So you're saying the two lane road rules apply but it is the Porsche's fault because the BMW was clearly taking a racing line ("setting up for corners at speed") which would be to the left of the road.

If the whole two lane thing is real it is unquestionably the BMW driver's fault, he should be tot he right at all times unless passing and he wasn't passing. The only way the it is the Porsche's fault (and it is 80/20 the Porsche's fault imho) is if you acknowledge the whole two lane thing is not enforced and the Porsche should have expected the BMW to potentially not be to the right.

It cannot be both.

To the letter of the law as I understand it, it's the BMW driver's fault.

I personally consider it to be the Porsche driver's fault for the reasons I have stated.

And as I have stated, the laws are there to protect the Nurburgring first, people second. Someone always has to pay, as long as it's not the Ring.

[WilcoJunoHotel]

So, neither driver had a "right" to that part of the road? Sort of like someone here in the USA passing on a double yellow line and the person you are passing decides to move into your lane at the same time.

I suspect they will both be 50/50 on this one: Since neither driver had any "right" to that part of the road, the guy in the Porsche should have been more cautious when overtaking the M2 and the guy in the M2 should have made sure there was no one overtaking him before moving left.

One of those $30 wide view rearview mirrors that I see on a lot of race cars would likely have prevented this and maybe should be a requirement as well as the owner of the track establishing very hard rules about passing.

[hufington]

Two of the well-engineered brands shown us that safety engineering shouldn't be a secondary thought like in some newly emerging brands but a priority and ongoing effort. I am glad that these fine vehicles protected the passengers from a horrible result of human error.

[Dan B]

Every single track experience i have had, from track days to actual competition, it is the responsibility of the overtaking vehicle to make a safe pass.

Every single track days has required a point by. Either hand or turn signal. No exceptions.

You must assume the driver ahead of you has not seen you until they acknowledge you with the point by.

[NSXR]

Originally Posted by WilcoJunoHotel

...the guy in the M2 should have made sure there was no one overtaking him before moving left.

What we're saying is that in that series of corners at that speed his attention was prudently on the corners themselves, and given how fast the Porsche came up on him, even if his attention was lax it was mere moments, and could have happened to any one of us. Put another way, there are times to check your mirrors and this wasn't one of them, but to use prudence in passing is EVERY time.

[WilcoJunoHotel]

Originally Posted by NSXR

What we're saying is that in that series of corners at that speed his attention was prudently on the corners themselves, and given how fast the Porsche came up on him, even if his attention was lax it was mere moments, and could have happened to any one of us. Put another way, there are times to check your mirrors and this wasn't one of them, but to use prudence in passing is EVERY time.

I understand what you are saying since I used to race motorcycles and you must remain focused on where you want to go but someone else posted that the track operates differently on these special types of track days for novices and moving around on the road (to get the best line) is basically changing lanes on these particular days??? There are so many different facets to this entire scenario that I can see all sides but it just seems bizarre to me that an incident like this, which probably happens very frequently with novice drivers, isn't already covered under track guidelines by the track operators. Just like with people in everyday traffic situations, problems almost always happen because of "right of way" and I find it hard to believe they don't have this covered.

[NSXR]

Originally Posted by WilcoJunoHotel

Someone else posted that the track operates differently on these special types of track days for novices and moving around on the road (to get the best line) is basically changing lanes on these particular days???

TF really has just one driving rule that's applicable here; pass on the left (which was done).

Originally Posted by WilcoJunoHotel

There are so many different facets to this entire scenario that I can see all sides but it just seems bizarre to me that an incident like this, which probably happens very frequently with novice drivers, isn't already covered under track guidelines by the track operators.

See my comments above. They know what people are there to do, and apparently feel that the rules they currently have are adequate.

Originally Posted by WilcoJunoHotel

Just like with people in everyday traffic situations, problems almost always happen because of "right of way" and I find it hard to believe they don't have this covered.

Re: Germany

https://nuerburgring.de/info/company...ng-regulations

The 2025 TF rules:

[StruckDM]

Wild

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

So you're saying the two lane road rules apply but it is the Porsche's fault because the BMW was clearly taking a racing line ("setting up for corners at speed") which would be to the left of the road.

If the whole two lane thing is real it is unquestionably the BMW driver's fault, he should be tot he right at all times unless passing and he wasn't passing. The only way the it is the Porsche's fault (and it is 80/20 the Porsche's fault imho) is if you acknowledge the whole two lane thing is not enforced and the Porsche should have expected the BMW to potentially not be to the right.

It cannot be both.

Right, it can't be both. It's not a two-lane road, it is a racetrack and the drivers of the cars are trying to drive as fast as they can, which means taking a racing line through the corners. It's not like the M2 was out driving to the grocery store to grab a liter of milk.

The Porsche driver put his car in the wrong place at the wrong time. How any laps on the 'Ring under TF is considered fun is way beyond me. I'd rather drive on the D.C. Beltway in Prince Georges County at 2:30 PM on a Friday afternoon. LOL.

[fourthchirpin]

Originally Posted by buckybadger

Porsche guy seems to be at fault.
At that speed, the M2 driver didn’t have enough time to react to Porsche trying to squeeze in during the corner apex turn. The Porsche came in from nowhere and caused the mess.

The Porsche driver took a risk but didn’t pay off.

It looks like he was riding the BMWs blind spot as well before he attempted to overtake. Even more reason the BMW didnt see him.


At time goes on we will get an account from the bmw driver and the porsche driver. Im curious to know if the BMW driver knew he was coming.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Right, it can't be both. It's not a two-lane road, it is a racetrack and the drivers of the cars are trying to drive as fast as they can, which means taking a racing line through the corners. It's not like the M2 was out driving to the grocery store to grab a liter of milk.

The Porsche driver put his car in the wrong place at the wrong time. How any laps on the 'Ring under TF is considered fun is way beyond me. I'd rather drive on the D.C. Beltway in Prince Georges County at 2:30 PM on a Friday afternoon. LOL.

There are already many similarities with the Ring during a TF and 495 from the recent videos I've seen. Only thing missing on the Ring are the idiots with their heads buried in their cell phones and the left lane slugs.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by fourthchirpin

It looks like he was riding the BMWs blind spot as well before he attempted to overtake. Even more reason the BMW didnt see him.


At time goes on we will get an account from the bmw driver and the porsche driver. Im curious to know if the BMW driver knew he was coming.

He did. Just didn’t want to get passed by the WAY superior car. Typical Beemer owner😂😃🤣. Jk Jk

[G30M]

Originally Posted by NSXR

The 2025 TF rules:

even that doesn't say it's a 2 lane road.

is it only 2 lane when you're passing and being passed?

must be one of those unwritten German rule that non Germans are assumed to just know

[Littlecoupe]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

How any laps on the 'Ring under TF is considered fun is way beyond me. I'd rather drive on the D.C. Beltway in Prince Georges County at 2:30 PM on a Friday afternoon. LOL.

I understand that sentiment, but it also depends on your reason for going. I'm going soon fully under the mindset that I'm not going to set a lap record or truly push the rental car to its absolute limits. I'm using the opportunity to drive on an iconic track with (mostly) no speed limits which hinder my ability to have some fun on it. Admittedly, the risk factor of others does concern me, but we're going to be in Europe for the first time in 10 years and I don't want to miss an opportunity to drive a world renowned track.

I've been trying to get some track time on other famous tracks like Laguna Seca, Road Atlanta, etc., and I find as a Canadian tourist it's quite difficult to line up the day, the vehicle, and the event. I haven't made it happen yet with our planned trips (I didn't plan around the track).

For that reason, I do appreciate TF for the ease of actually being able to get on a racetrack, even if it may be full of buffoons. Just means I need to exercise a lot of caution, although something I'm very used to with the genuinely SPECIAL people I get to share the roads with in my home city - rain, shine, or snow.

[Mavus]

so at time 0.08 M2 is going for the apex at the previous corner and P knows he is driving race line. P is approaching quickly and then makes a decision to pass M2 as the M2 goes for the next apex. There is no way in hell I would be attempting to pass like P knowing that M2 is very likely going for the apex until I am 100% sure I have a pass.

After watching it a few times I believe P thought he was clear to go as M2 moved to the right when in fact M2 was positioning for the optimal line to approach apex. Very very unfortunate timing and split second decision by P (most likely) caused the accident.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Mavus

so at time 0.08 M2 is going for the apex at the previous corner and P knows he is driving race line. P is approaching quickly and then makes a decision to pass M2 as the M2 goes for the next apex. There is no way in hell I would be attempting to pass like P knowing that M2 is very likely going for the apex until I am 100% sure I have a pass.

and the result is, the prices of remaining 992 GT3 RS have just gone up

[cfm56d7b]

Originally Posted by hufington

Two of the well-engineered brands shown us that safety engineering shouldn't be a secondary thought like in some newly emerging brands but a priority and ongoing effort. I am glad that these fine vehicles protected the passengers from a horrible result of human error.

So little to add to such an accurate comment. What is remarkable is how both vehicles were engineered by humans without the benefit of multiple crashes proving or disproving a certain engineering approach.