Big crash on Nürburgring between 911 GT3 RS + BMW M2 (didn't use blinkers)

[RMNB]

Originally Posted by Pauly Wauly

I`ve watched the video over and over again, and it`s 100% the BMW driver`s fault! The lack of awareness from the BMW driver who was on his first visit to the Nürburgring is what caused the accident.

^^^^^ definitely the bimmers fault. Notice in vid that Mr. M2's ego took over before they actually crashed. BMW moved to the left prior so the Porsche would not pass the first time. Second time he did it again which caused the crash. Thankfully they survived!!!

Next...call around for priority 1 allocations on the next M2 build.

[beats]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

On such a high-speed roadway/track with so many turns and clipped apexes, I assume the rules include only passing on the left, and only passing when a driver has signaled right, acknowledging your presence and desire to pass.

It wasn't a private lapping day, there is no need for signalling. Further, even if it was a lapping day, each club can run rules that they see fit, provided they are clearly communicated at the morning briefing. Assumptions here are irrelevant to fact.

[noemon]

No matter what rules are communicated or what nonsensical TF rules apply, the fact remains that it is up to the overtaking driver to exercise caution and to ensure that they have been noticed by the car in front.

Everything else is bullocks and assumptions.

All the [moral] blame lies with the Porsche and that is the line all people concerned with safety should be saying regardless of final outcome.

Noone cares if the driver in front is bad, unaware, a noob or whatever else, this is even more reason for the “experienced” ones to exercise caution.

There are many situations where another driver may not be up to the task, we dont probe these situations cause the law may be on our side, we sit back.

[fourthchirpin]

overtaking driver assumes most of the risk while overtaking. That section was a poor place to overtake.

M2 driver did not see the person over taking him and thats how this happened.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Pauly Wauly

I`ve watched the video over and over again, and it`s 100% the BMW driver`s fault! The lack of awareness from the BMW driver who was on his first visit to the Nürburgring is what caused the accident.

Absolutely. The idiot should never have been allowed to track, in any other car makes both probably would have been in coffins now.

[e4603]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Again, he can go on about the rules and keeping to the right but no one does, as in no one, they all follow racing lines and try to hit apexes.

A few weeks ago during one of her laps, my wife stayed right at the carousel because a couple of cars were coming up behind her fast. Just because some video games encourage you to drive a certain line doesn’t mean you should blindly do so IRL.

[NSXR]

Originally Posted by noemon

No matter what rules are communicated or what nonsensical TF rules apply, the fact remains that it is up to the overtaking driver to exercise caution and to ensure that they have been noticed by the car in front.

Everything else is bullocks and assumptions.

All the [moral] blame lies with the Porsche and that is the line all people concerned with safety should be saying regardless of final outcome.

Noone cares if the driver in front is bad, unaware, a noob or whatever else, this is even more reason for the “experienced” ones to exercise caution.

There are many situations where another driver may not be up to the task, we dont probe these situations cause the law may be on our side, we sit back.

It can't be said better than this. The Porsche driver clearly had the faster car, he just didn't have the patience/expertise/prudence to use it properly.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by noemon

No matter what rules are communicated or what nonsensical TF rules apply, the fact remains that it is up to the overtaking driver to exercise caution and to ensure that they have been noticed by the car in front.

Everything else is bullocks and assumptions.

All the [moral] blame lies with the Porsche and that is the line all people concerned with safety should be saying regardless of final outcome.

Noone cares if the driver in front is bad, unaware, a noob or whatever else, this is even more reason for the “experienced” ones to exercise caution.

There are many situations where another driver may not be up to the task, we dont probe these situations cause the law may be on our side, we sit back.

All of this.

The track school/days I attend have different groups that go out on track and within those groups there are riders of varying levels (1 through 4). Sometimes there are lots of level 1s in a group and times there are lots/exclusively level 4s in a group. Level 1s are the riders that have the least experience at the school and level 4s have the most. If there are mixing of riding levels, the school places the level 1s and 4s together. The ideology is that the level 4s have the experience and judgement to be able to handle any potential erratic riding behaviors from level 1 riders. Hence my initial comments in this thread from my perspective with the track days/school I've been attending which to me seems to be so much more logical than what appears to be an hope and pray environment of a TF at the Ring.

I'll echo the sentiments that I would never get on track at the Ring during a TF. Heck, there are track days at a nearby track I can attend that I don't because of what I've heard concerning riders that show up thinking they're the next Rossi, Martin, or Marquez.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

All of this.

The track school/days I attend have different groups that go out on track and within those groups there are riders of varying levels (1 through 4). Sometimes there are lots of level 1s in a group and times there are lots/exclusively level 4s in a group. Level 1s are the riders that have the least experience at the school and level 4s have the most. If there are mixing of riding levels, the school places the level 1s and 4s together. The ideology is that the level 4s have the experience and judgement to be able to handle any potential erratic riding behaviors from level 1 riders. Hence my initial comments in this thread from my perspective with the track days/school I've been attending which to me seems to be so much more logical than what appears to be an hope and pray environment of a TF at the Ring.

I'll echo the sentiments that I would never get on track at the Ring during a TF. Heck, there are track days at a nearby track I can attend that I don't because of what I've heard concerning riders that show up thinking they're the next Rossi, Martin, or Marquez.

This. Of the videos I've seen of Misha driving the ring (the Kia Ionic 5 comes to mind), none of it seems fun to me. What is the point of trying to take a racing line on a track when there are vast amounts of traffic of varying levels of performance capabilities (the cars) and skill levels (the drivers).

[noemon]

The case is very clear from the rings own camera.

Bmw was not on the right hand lane. Porsche had neither the right nor the space to overtake. Porsche went to the curb, lifted and clipped the Bmw.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by NSXR

I understand what you're saying, but you're really incorrect. A tell might be your use of "no one" and "all." What you see on videos isn't the way it usually is, and a lot of people who know they aren't fast stay to the right, even if they don't know the rules from the outset because they get tired of people coming up on them quickly and flashing them. It also only takes a minute to figure out that everyone passes on the left only during TF, thus the slower drivers stay to the right.

And yes, the rest of the people (not the majority) treat it like a racetrack and try to hit the apexes and there is nothing wrong with that.

It's not incorrect. OK a select few stick tot he right but go grab almost any ring youtube video, especially the most common one that updates regularly with a camera on a notorious corner and the vast, vast, vast majority of drivers are taking wide racing lines.

This is one random one at different corners, virtually every driver is taking a wide entry, (trying to) hit the apex then running wide. CLear as day.

If the law comes after me as the M2 driver my defense is very simple, here is evidence the "stick to the right" is not enforced, I gave no indication to the much faster vehicle that I had seen him, he should have proceeded with more caution and waited for a longer straight to pass.

[NSXR]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

It's not incorrect.

You posted a compilation video, not the general reality. Such videos literally collect sensational events at sensational corners during sensational times.

I'm betting you've never been to the Ring, and if you have, it was once on a sensational day.

[fourthchirpin]

Originally Posted by noemon

The case is very clear from the rings own camera.

Bmw was not on the right hand lane. Porsche had neither the right nor the space to overtake. Porsche went to the curb, lifted and clipped the Bmw.

from the porsche POV it even looked like when he hit the curb he hit the M2 at the same time. Porsche had no business trying the over take.

[fs1977]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

If the law comes after me as the M2 driver my defense is very simple, here is evidence the "stick to the right" is not enforced, I gave no indication to the much faster vehicle that I had seen him, he should have proceeded with more caution and waited for a longer straight to pass.

Yeah, I don't think law works that way, in Europe anyway . Just because it's not activly enforced, doesn't mean laws or rules don't apply. Besides, with this kind of big crashes the German police is almost always involved. To take statements and assess the situation. Keep in mind the German StVO applies during TF.

I agree with you that the Porsche should have proceeded with more caution. But nevertheless, the BMW should have been more on the right and it's ultimately the BMW driver who hits the Porsche on the right back side.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

It's not incorrect. OK a select few stick tot he right but go grab almost any ring youtube video, especially the most common one that updates regularly with a camera on a notorious corner and the vast, vast, vast majority of drivers are taking wide racing lines.

This is one random one at different corners, virtually every driver is taking a wide entry, (trying to) hit the apex then running wide. CLear as day.

If the law comes after me as the M2 driver my defense is very simple, here is evidence the "stick to the right" is not enforced, I gave no indication to the much faster vehicle that I had seen him, he should have proceeded with more caution and waited for a longer straight to pass.

For me the best thing on this vid @ 13:25 is the 388 with fuk the 70mph limit plate, believe it or not it's still the max legal speed on motorways in UK.

[M2squared]

Porsche took an unnecessary risk, the BMW closed the door and the space was getting increasingly smaller into the left hander.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by NSXR

You posted a compilation video, not the general reality. Such videos literally collect sensational events at sensational corners during sensational times.

I'm betting you've never been to the Ring, and if you have, it was once on a sensational day.

There's thousands of them to choose from and any random one you select shows nearly every drive, not just those involved in incidents, take the racing line. You can keep saying it is not the case but it is very clear it is the case that this rule is absolutely not enforced.

[NSXR]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

There's thousands of them to choose from and any random one you select shows nearly every drive, not just those involved in incidents, take the racing line. You can keep saying it is not the case but it is very clear it is the case that this rule is absolutely not enforced.

Show me a ring video that is unedited and shows every car on a normal corner. There is no such video. All of those videos are at high-risk corners and show accidents for views.

As I said earlier, the rules of the Ring are there to protect the Ring first, people second, otherwise it'd get shut down post haste. It goes without saying the the rules are constantly being bent without issue until there is an accident, in which case the Ring is absolved first.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by beats

It wasn't a private lapping day, there is no need for signalling. Further, even if it was a lapping day, each club can run rules that they see fit, provided they are clearly communicated at the morning briefing. Assumptions here are irrelevant to fact.

It should be a no brainer to signal even on a private day and on any day. Thimk F1 driver when on the track
The UK M2 driver will not have been insured according to Misha as the 'Ring doesn't insure any UK registered vehicle while on track according to the vid. He's now either crying to daddy for another one or raiding his bank funds to get back on the road with another M2

[Dantesboyz]

As the Porsche driver, if it looks like the M2 driver doesn't know or understand the ring rules...
Why overtake on that turn?
Seemed too risky

[BMW-M-Germany]

You can say this is M2 driver's fault but I say either 50-50 (because 911 got kind of T boned) or more importantly 911 driver's fault because he chose very bad spot to pass the M2. It is at corner and if you look at the picture more closely you can see M2 was already entered the curve.
You can see how M2 is going.

[Evinrude1975]

“Okay It’s just a graze, then I think I could probably buff it out if you said it’a a graze”

Sebastian Maniscalco