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      10-25-2012, 09:36 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by car_fan View Post
Back on Topic "OP" this car has an Msport package but looks completely silly with an ///M5 badge don't you think
I personally think putting M badges on none M car is retarded, but I guess OP is saying since there isn't a X1 M, he's trying to use that reason to justify his badge whoring...
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      10-27-2012, 01:19 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
Actually, you're missing the point. I agree that there's a lot more to a M car than horsepower. I'm just saying that the M sport package x35i already has most of those things. I don't know what your deal is - maybe you're from the UK and haven't seen the American M sport package yet?



Yeah, no. Curb weight X5 x50i 5379lbs. Curb weight X5M 5368lbs. So much for your theory.

Really? Because the X5M has a ZF 6 speed auto - and so does the X1 35i M Sport. Fail once again.



X5M and the X1 both have X drive....lol



Link please?



I'll give you this - so far, your main arguing point for an M car is "warranty." Nice.



The X1 M Sport already has sport seats with large, fully inflatable side bolsters.




Actually, based on your inaccurate info above, it appears that you've never driven one besides your M3. And you've clearly never driven an M sport SUV. I've driven the e46 and e92 M3's, as well as the 2012 X6M.

And once again, in addition to the above things, the M Sport X1 already has an M suspension, M steering wheel, M wheels, M tires, M bodywork, and M DTC software. I mean, the steering wheel, wheels and tires, side sills, and even the seats can literally bolt right into "real" M models.



Because the X1 is a lifted 1 series? You're aware that they are based on the same platform, and that you can even interchange suspension and exhaust parts, right? Hell they even have the same engine.



So are the X5M and the X6M - "real" M cars according to BMW. This is exactly my point - your beloved days of hardcore M cars are gone forever. So if the only metric you use to define a "real" M car is BMW's badging, than the X1 35i M Sport is pretty damn close. Including the SIX M badges that come on the car stock.
Son.

1. I have been to europe many many times. I can tell you they know what American M package looks like. Because those cosmetic parts, european market actually gets it earlier than US counter part.

2. You do realize that X5M comes with a lot more equipment and features as compare to regular X5 right?

3. Just because both uses ZF 6 speed automatic. does that automatically means that they are the same transmission??? You want to go take a look?

4. M sport suspension? please tell me you are not serious. As a former owner of 135i M sport, I can tell you that 1M rear suspension is different from M sport. In fact the rear differential and rear suspension came from E92 M3 and shares none of the 135i M sport rear.

M tires?
Let me tell you something.

My 135i M sport came with so so tire. Potenza RE050.
The 1M came with Pirelli P11, which is much better than RE050.

M DTC software-
Last time i check, my 135i does not have MDM nor does it allows me to change the timing of throttle response.

You can put on any badge you like. I don't care. But please don't over estimate M- badge cosmetic parts.
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      10-30-2012, 03:27 PM   #69
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I’ll share my two cents.

It seems to me that BMW ITSELF feels the car is worthy of the M badge by placing the M badge everywhere inside and outside on the M X1 already.

You and your guests see it when you first walk up to the car (M on the wheels), when you first open the door (M on the sill), when you look at the shifter, when you look at the instrument cluster, etc, etc. It is everywhere on the inside AND outside of the car. So your guests already see the M badge – from BMW – while walking up to the door. It is all true BMW M equipment.

If an owner paid BMW the sizable amount extra to get the upgrade to all true BMW M equipment on his/her car – with the goal to make it as fully M as the M X1 can be ordered as, then I don’t see any problem for someone wanting to take the same BMW M logo that BMW put on the inside of their car, on the outside to make it match.

IE - Since they ordered and paid for the M X1… I see no problem if they want the badge on the outside to match the badging on the inside.

This is NOT someone taking a stock X1 and slapping a M5 badge on it. Rather it is someone making the badging on the exterior of their M X1 match the badging of the interior of their M X1.

OP - Don’t let some of the arrogance surrounding the M badge turn you away from making your M X1 car look as you want, and/or as unified as you want it to look.

These people can take it up with BMW for M badging the entire car with M except for on the hatch. To many, you are simply making your car look unified.

Last month I did my M X1 ED. My interaction with the two M5 ED folks (from one of the BMW forums but I didn’t get which one) on my same delivery day left a sour taste in my mouth. I had wanted to say hi to fellow forum ED members, but they dismissed the entire rest of the group and only interacted with each other - all day - as “M people”. They further acted like complete American yahoo’s rev’ing their engines in neutral to red line during their first moments delivery inside BMW Welt to ‘show off” by making big Harly noises. No other European would act in this uncouth and “not smart for a new engine” way. My family lives in Munich and originally I thought I’d help them out or offer pointers – but their arrogance made me keep my distance.

Later in the ED trip, in my “M-equipped X1”, I beat and passed a likewise-new ED M5 that I caught up to on the Stelvio Pass, as we both were passing other cars together. He and I later spoke together while waiting for a blocked construction vehicle to clear the road near the start. He challenged me up the hill in front of his three friends in the car (he having pole position). He had such M5 arrogance while looking down his nose at my own new ED car. My AWD M-equipped car out performed his where it really mattered most - on a most challenging road. As we raced each other up the hairpins, his back-end kept sliding out and lightening up in all the corners (similar to over-powered American Mustangs), until I finally passed him on one of the corners. That felt amazing! On Stelvio! Whereas my car, I felt, hunkered down on every corner and stuck to the road like glue. I was extremely impressed with my car’s handling. Same for passing ‘better’ cars on the Autobahn at 130+ mph. Again – where and when it mattered most – and more of challenge than it would ever see here in the US – this M-equipped car drove as a high performance German car should. YMMV.

To me it is not simply “ALL” about what badge you have outside your hatch as some the M arrogance suggests, but what kind of person are and what kind skilled driver you are. Perhaps I’m projecting that M attitude experienced from there to here, where it is coloring my reading of this discussion here.

Beyond that, the incoherent “half and half” M X1 badging concept simply does not feel right, looks incomplete, and gives off conflicting energy to me in almost a Zen-violating way. Either add it all the way or take it all off.

My car is still in transit after ED. I have not decided what I will do with it myself yet – whether leave it alone, or de-badge it like I saw many in Europe, or make the outside badging match the inside badging.

However, by competitively passing the M5 up Stelvio, I feel my car has earned “its stripes” - if I decide to go that route. Or I may take the M logos off the interior entirely if I feel they look too incoherent or too flashy. I need more time in and with my car to tell.

So OP - If you like the way your M X1 looks with the same M badge on the outside as BMW put everywhere on the inside, and/or you feel it unifies your M exterior to your M interior… then go for it!
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      10-30-2012, 03:47 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krispykreme View Post
Son.

1. I have been to europe many many times. I can tell you they know what American M package looks like. Because those cosmetic parts, european market actually gets it earlier than US counter part.
The European X1 x35i M Sport is totally different than the US one. You know how I know? Because the Europeans don't even get the X35i.

Quote:
2. You do realize that X5M comes with a lot more equipment and features as compare to regular X5 right?
You do realize that the X1 35i M Sport comes with a lot more equipment and features compared to the regular X1, right?

Quote:
3. Just because both uses ZF 6 speed automatic. does that automatically means that they are the same transmission??? You want to go take a look?
Please, they are more similar than different. The same transmission in the X1 M Sport has been proven to handle 500lbft TQ just fine - actually, it handles the torque BETTER than the dual clutch setup in the 1M does, which is known to begin slipping in the 400's. Do your research.

Quote:
4. M sport suspension? please tell me you are not serious. As a former owner of 135i M sport, I can tell you that 1M rear suspension is different from M sport. In fact the rear differential and rear suspension came from E92 M3 and shares none of the 135i M sport rear.
Congratulations, good thing we're not talking about the 135.

Quote:
M tires?
Let me tell you something.

My 135i M sport came with so so tire. Potenza RE050.
The 1M came with PS2, which is much better than RE050.
No, let me tell you something. My X1 M Sport comes with 19 inch Pirelli P-Zero's - equivalent to the PS2 and much better than Potenze RE050. Once again, do your research.

Quote:
M DTC software-
Last time i check, my 135i does not have MDM nor does it allows me to change the timing of throttle response.
That's great; but again I think you're confused and are in the wrong thread. The 135 forum is that way ------------>. My X1 M's throttle response absolutely changes in sport and on BMW's own damn website it mentions bespoke DTC software that allows a much greater power split to the rear, drastically reducing understeer along with the M Sport suspension.

And that's not even mentioning performance control, which independently corner brakes and redirects power on the fly to induce controllable over-steer - yet another thing that the normal X1 doesn't have.

Quote:
You can put on any badge you like. I don't care. But please don't over estimate M- badge cosmetic parts.
You're the only one talking about cosmetic parts.

But hey. I would say "Enjoy your M5," but I just realized you can't even drive it without the engine blowing up. Some awesome M engineering right there!!!

Last edited by paradoxical3; 10-30-2012 at 03:53 PM.
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      10-30-2012, 07:04 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleskier View Post
I’ll share my two cents.

It seems to me that BMW ITSELF feels the car is worthy of the M badge by placing the M badge everywhere inside and outside on the M X1 already.
So on my 135i M sport, it has all the M mark. Does it means the car is M?

Get real. Its just a marketing symbol nothing else.

The fact of matter is 135i Msport shares the same suspension setup (inc spring/shock) with regular 135i with sports package.

Just because it have M shifer, M steering wheel, and M door trim. So my 135i is a M car?

Keep in mind the 1M actually take the rear differential and rear suspension from M3. That should tell you what M car really is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleskier View Post

OP - Don’t let some of the arrogance surrounding the M badge turn you away from making your M X1 car look as you want, and/or as unified as you want it to look.

These people can take it up with BMW for M badging the entire car with M except for on the hatch. To many, you are simply making your car look unified.
Its not about arrogance. Its about reality.

M badge does not make the car a M car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleskier View Post
Later in the ED trip, in my “M-equipped X1”, I beat and passed a likewise-new ED M5 that I caught up to on the Stelvio Pass, as we both were passing other cars together. He and I later spoke together while waiting for a blocked construction vehicle to clear the road near the start. He challenged me up the hill in front of his three friends in the car (he having pole position). He had such M5 arrogance while looking down his nose at my own new ED car. My AWD M-equipped car out performed his where it really mattered most - on a most challenging road. As we raced each other up the hairpins, his back-end kept sliding out and lightening up in all the corners (similar to over-powered American Mustangs), until I finally passed him on one of the corners. That felt amazing! On Stelvio! Whereas my car, I felt, hunkered down on every corner and stuck to the road like glue. I was extremely impressed with my car’s handling. Same for passing ‘better’ cars on the Autobahn at 130+ mph. Again – where and when it mattered most – and more of challenge than it would ever see here in the US – this M-equipped car drove as a high performance German car should. YMMV.
Good story- i guess.

In case you didn't realize the M5 breakin does not allow speed over 110mph.

Plus its driver that makes the car perform.

Given a good driver, your X1 won't stand a chance against M5. Even if M5 is bulky and sloppy in tight corner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleskier View Post
So OP - If you like the way your M X1 looks with the same M badge on the outside as BMW put everywhere on the inside, and/or you feel it unifies your M exterior to your M interior… then go for it!
Personally, its up individual owner to decide what she or he wants to do with his/her car.

But adding a M badge does not make a car a M car.

That is all.
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      10-30-2012, 07:41 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
The European X1 x35i M Sport is totally different than the US one. You know how I know? Because the Europeans don't even get the X35i.
You do realize that European actually get x25D, which has more torque and came with same M sport package.

Go google X1 Xdrive 25D M sport.


Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
You do realize that the X1 35i M Sport comes with a lot more equipment and features compared to the regular X1, right?
So?

Other than sports suspension, summer tire, and higher top speed limit. None of the other upgrade are performance oriented.

This is same with 135is. But 135is is not 1M. The suspension and entire DTC tuning is different. No MDM.

In 135is case, it did get DCT, which is not even available on X1 M sport.

So please save that argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
Please, they are more similar than different. The same transmission in the X1 M Sport has been proven to handle 500lbft TQ just fine - actually, it handles the torque BETTER than the dual clutch setup in the 1M does, which is known to begin slipping in the 400's. Do your research.
So what does this mean?

Does it mean your car corners better? Handled better?

Your 6 speed is shared from regular 135i automatic. And you want to compare that to a clutchless manual? Which delivers power with far better efficiency than your slushbox 6 speed- which is already 6 years old.


Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
No, let me tell you something. My X1 M Sport comes with 19 inch Pirelli P-Zero's - equivalent to the PS2 and much better than Potenze RE050. Once again, do your research.
Not true.

The M cars comes with extreme summer tires. Which is a grade about your max performance tire.

Please don't flatter your tire. Thank you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
That's great; but again I think you're confused and are in the wrong thread. The 135 forum is that way ------------>. My X1 M's throttle response absolutely changes in sport and on BMW's own damn website it mentions bespoke DTC software that allows a much greater power split to the rear, drastically reducing understeer along with the M Sport suspension.
Go drive a real M car. Please.


Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
And that's not even mentioning performance control, which independently corner brakes and redirects power on the fly to induce controllable over-steer - yet another thing that the normal X1 doesn't have.
You want to check that too.

Its called DPC. Which is standard on your mom and pop X6, and its strip down version in X1.

So please don't confuse it with the full blown version on the X5/6m and standard X6.

Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
You're the only one talking about cosmetic parts.

But hey. I would say "Enjoy your M5," but I just realized you can't even drive it without the engine blowing up. Some awesome M engineering right there!!!
Well. At least its still a M car with a clutch.

Unlike someone X1 35M that still uses the old 6 speed automatic with old shifter.

I just find is so amusing that you can turn a souped down version of performance control into the most ingenious BMW invention. Not to mention the outdate 6 speed automatic shifter, totally look out of place compare to the 8 speed.

AMEN.
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      10-30-2012, 09:28 PM   #73
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OK, guys - want some popcorn? Who has the beer?
This slugfest won't go on for too much longer, so watch it while it's live!
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      10-30-2012, 10:30 PM   #74
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Jee wizzz we still talking about this? Hell guys get in your car and go drive ......
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      10-31-2012, 07:51 AM   #75
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Well Ive decided not to add the M badge, instead Im going to completely wrap the car in M colors. Should be really cool.
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      10-31-2012, 05:00 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAMERBOI
Jee wizzz we still talking about this? Hell guys get in your car and go drive ......
Well

Thanks to oil pump incompetence. My car still at VDC
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      11-01-2012, 03:45 AM   #77
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teleskier: yup I also felt a little bit snobbed by this guy doing ED of his M5 at the same time we were picking up our X1, and even after I mentioned having a 1M (snobbism even between M models!). As for passing him up the Stelvio let's just say that the skill of the driver can have a bigger influence than the badge on the back of the car on some roads. Heck I even passed an M3 in my X1 with a passenger and the trunk full of luggage on the Nurburgring .

Paradoxical: the "sporty" versions of BMW cars are now called "M Sports package" and have M badges everywhere: it's a marketing exercise! They are milking the "M" branding for all its worth.

Yes, they are still better/sportier versions of the car with upgrades to many things from the regular model (and yes I'm sure some engineers from the M division may even have been involved in selecting some if those upgrades) but a proper ('full fat') M version of the car it yet another level above. Can you put one more M badge in the back of your tuned up M sports X1? Of course you can! Does it make it the equivalent of an hypothetical X1M? Probably not. Does it make you look like all those guys with those tuned 135s trying to argue on the 1M forums that their cars are just as good as the 1M? Probably yes...

Oh and you did loose a credibility point when arguing about the 1M DCT not being able to handle as much torque as the 6 speed auto: the 1M only ever came with a manual transmission.
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      11-01-2012, 08:50 AM   #78
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jnm: Your profile picture is apropos, as that is one of the choices I'm considering. My car is still in transit, so I want to see how it looks and feels amid the American car landscape (ie, a generic mall parking lot or highway). If it still maintains a "big car" feel here as it did in Europe, which I doubt, it might also help drive the decision.

Primarily I want to see which option I feel makes the car look sharpest and most coherent, live on my own car. To me, and only me. So I have to play around with the options on my actual car when it gets here.

In order of likelihood:
  1. De-badge completely (stealth, and I liked this understated look I saw in Europe)
  2. Put the M next to X1 to form MX1 (since it's as M as the X1 gets, but flip-side this could also feel Japanese)
  3. Remove X1 and leave just the M (as per jnm)
  4. Leave it looking like a generic stock X1 when it is not (stealth, and I liked the "X" AWD nature of the driving performance)

Hopefully my car will arrive in my hands by the end of the month.

Last edited by Teleskier; 11-01-2012 at 08:59 AM.
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      11-01-2012, 09:10 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleskier View Post
jnm: Your profile picture is apropos, as that is one of the choices I'm considering. My car is still in transit, so I want to see how it looks and feels amid the American car landscape (ie, a generic mall parking lot or highway). If it still maintains a "big car" feel here as it did in Europe, which I doubt, it might also help drive the decision.

Primarily I want to see which option I feel makes the car look sharpest and most coherent, live on my own car. To me, and only me. So I have to play around with the options on my actual car when it gets here.

In order of likelihood:
  1. De-badge completely (stealth, and I liked this understated look I saw in Europe)
  2. Put the M next to X1 to form MX1 (since it's as M as the X1 gets, but flip-side this could also feel Japanese)
  3. Remove X1 and leave just the M (as per jnm)
  4. Leave it looking like a generic stock X1 when it is not (stealth, and I liked the "X" AWD nature of the driving performance)

Hopefully my car will arrive in my hands by the end of the month.
You realize #3 looks like that because it is an actual M, a 1M Coupe, right?
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      11-01-2012, 01:53 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
You realize #3 looks like that because it is an actual M, a 1M Coupe, right?
Hmm, interesting. No, I hadn't, so thanks. I've been away from BMW for about a decade.

So it's M5, M3, but the M1 is badged as just M? Really? It seems BMW is going out of their way to make the marquees confusing and a jumble.

Curiously the M1 does not appear on BMWUSA website.
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      11-01-2012, 02:50 PM   #81
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The 1M Coupe was a limited, one year run. Like the Z3 and Z4 M Roadsters and Coupes, they just have an M badge with no number.
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      11-01-2012, 03:29 PM   #82
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Hmm, what to do on lunch. X1 forum is slow so here goes...

It's too bad someone would snub anyone or anything else because they want to think they're somehow better because of their particular car. Like Jnm said, it doesn't actually take much driving skills to outdrive someone in a higher performance car who doesn't know how to actually make their car perform.

Anyone who drives tracks knows it's about driving skill and the correct setup for your skills and the particular track. And drag racing is about timing and consistency so the majority of loud wanna-be's who are obsessed with quarter mile times often lack much more driving skill than keeping a car going straight forward. The conversations at tracks are often quite different than conversations at a Friday night drag strip meet (But Saturday and Sunday afternoons are usually different than Friday nights as well).

It's which group you feel more at home with. Who cares what the M5 buyer thought, if anything it makes most of us think less of him as a person. You bought what you wanted for your reasons.

Badge mods are the same idea. Badges don't make a car go faster, and performance mods aren't a guarantee either. I don't see the point in false badging a car or debadging either. If you want to stand out as a good driver then driver better, don't put all the reasons or excuses onto your car. If you want a show car for artistic reasons then do whatever you want, but artists don't ask others for opinions either.

Oh, and the people who have the high sticker cars and come to the track with no desire to learn their cars and won't admit they all have weaknesses are the same guys who you see do a few laps one day, they complain the track is bad, maybe they get pulled out of the sand or complain about the grass and dirt stuck on their car and finally they won't be around long enough to actually get to know anyone. The only time you really see them is when they're being pulled over by cops for reckless driving or trading the car in for their next ego boost.
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      11-01-2012, 03:54 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleskier View Post
Hmm, interesting. No, I hadn't, so thanks. I've been away from BMW for about a decade.

So it's M5, M3, but the M1 is badged as just M? Really? It seems BMW is going out of their way to make the marquees confusing and a jumble.

Curiously the M1 does not appear on BMWUSA website.
M1 was an old BMW supercar that looks like the love child of a Lamborghini Countach and a Saab Sonett III, made to loosen your kidneys before the inevitable organ donation that would follow.

The "1-series M Coupe" is named so to avoid confusion with the M1.

Likewise, there's M5, but X5M, because calling it MX5 would collide with the Mazda.
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      11-01-2012, 05:23 PM   #84
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I found this instructive and suggests that M without a number might be the best choice for "M Sport" M-equipped cars :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M

In recent years, there have been M-badged accessories available on non-M cars, usually as factory options or as part of the "M Sport" package (which is usually more expensive than the regular Sport package). Examples of this include the E39 and E60 5 series sedans had optional aerodynamic packages strongly influenced by M5 styling (for example bumpers with larger intakes). It is not unusual to see "standard" BMW's with "M" badges or ribbons accenting the design. The plain motorsports Badge simply stands for M-tech upgrades on the car, suspension, brakes, looks or any other mod that has been developed by the ///M division. So therefore the ///M badge should not under any circumstances be compared to the ///M+number badge (except the Z-cars, as mentioned), as they are not fully fledged M-cars, just M-equipped. BMW has for example, had these ///M options on the regular cars since the late 1970s, which explains why some cars that carry these ///M-badges from factory.
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      11-01-2012, 06:28 PM   #85
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You certainly stirred a hornets nest on this one!
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      11-02-2012, 08:25 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popopine View Post
You certainly stirred a hornets nest on this one!
Much like putting a Nash badge on a Hornet, yes...
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      11-02-2012, 12:11 PM   #87
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I actually read that as offering something to everyone, as a fair compromise.

The M+number badging is still rare and exclusive (as it should be).

The M alone 'just' means M equipped beyond the normal stock model, at a step below that.

It's all where you draw the line.

I know more than few Bavarians who'd be quite upset that some people here are replacing the beloved "weiss und blau" of Bayern in the roundel with a black and white version. Others freak out if you make any non-EOM change to the car at all, right down to the offense of using non-EOM oil filters, etc.

Someone will be upset somewhere, no matter what you do. So do what you want. But the above did seem to be a fair compromise that respects the M history. However my feelings on this are new and still evolving (to quote Obama).
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      11-02-2012, 12:28 PM   #88
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Garage List
1999 VF BMW M3  [5.00]
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2008 135i  [5.00]
2003 M3  [3.10]
2011.75 BMW M3  [4.17]
2009 STi  [3.83]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleskier View Post
I actually read that as offering something to everyone, as a fair compromise.

The M+number badging is still rare and exclusive (as it should be).

The M alone 'just' means M equipped beyond the normal stock model, at a step below that.

It's all where you draw the line.

I know more than few Bavarians who'd be quite upset that some people here are replacing the beloved "weiss und blau" of Bayern in the roundel with a black and white version. Others freak out if you make any non-EOM change to the car at all, right down to the offense of using non-EOM oil filters, etc.

Someone will be upset somewhere, no matter what you do. So do what you want. But the above did seem to be a fair compromise that respects the M history. However my feelings on this are new and still evolving (to quote Obama).
The only acceptable badge change is to add an "s" which is exactly what BMW does when they add a little turbo tune and such.
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