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      10-20-2012, 08:32 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnm View Post
Sacrilege! .

I do know what you mean by it having little M badges everywhere already but to those that know you will look like a fool that is "trying too hard".

And it takes more than just an engine tune to make a real "M car", you can boost an N55 so it can out-drag a stock M3 for a block or two but comes the first corner it will be a very different story.

The X1 is a great handling car and it will leave almost all others SUV/CUV behind in the corners but its still nowhere even a "lowly" 1M (trust me on this one, I have first hand knowledge )
Generally this is true, but the M sport also has an M suspension, M-specific DTC and stability control programming that route more power to the rear wheels, M-specific rims with pirelli P-zeros, etc. The difference between the M sport X1 35i and a theoretical X1 M is virtually nothing. Maybe bigger brakes?
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      10-20-2012, 09:53 PM   #24
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Add an "O" and a "D" to the end of the M badge. or maybe a "T"
So you would represent a modded or tuned stock build.

I also like what another poster said about leaving it off and having the stealth.
Only you know whats really under the hood.
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      10-21-2012, 12:35 AM   #25
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NEIN !
Just DON'T DO IT!!!!

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      10-21-2012, 06:04 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
Generally this is true, but the M sport also has an M suspension, M-specific DTC and stability control programming that route more power to the rear wheels, M-specific rims with pirelli P-zeros, etc. The difference between the M sport X1 35i and a theoretical X1 M is virtually nothing. Maybe bigger brakes?
The weakest Motorsport (M) model has 444 hp. The US X1 regardless of line/trim has 240 or 300, depending on model.

Then there's the lack of a manual shift (in the US). No, an rpm-restricted ability to shift up or down on an automatic gearbox does not count.

And yes, the brakes on the X1 are a tad underdimensioned, especially for the 300 hp 35i, and the weight distribution isn't exactly Motorsport either.

Calling it an M is pretentious, like adding false embellishments to your name.
The X1 is a great car, and you may be a great person, but adding an ///M badge (or III to your name) just marks you as a wannabe.
Now if you have a window decal or license plate holder that marks you as an M fan, that's different - it doesn't make a claim.

That said, if the claim is as absurd as to clearly fall into parody, it's different. Like the GT emblem I saw on a 2CV, or an old BMW 1600 with Spirit of Ecstasy on the hood.

Be proud of what you have - what you don't have doesn't in any way diminish what you do have.
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      10-21-2012, 07:25 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grovsnus View Post
The weakest Motorsport (M) model has 444 hp. The US X1 regardless of line/trim has 240 or 300, depending on model.

Then there's the lack of a manual shift (in the US). No, an rpm-restricted ability to shift up or down on an automatic gearbox does not count.

And yes, the brakes on the X1 are a tad underdimensioned, especially for the 300 hp 35i, and the weight distribution isn't exactly Motorsport either.

Calling it an M is pretentious, like adding false embellishments to your name.
The X1 is a great car, and you may be a great person, but adding an ///M badge (or III to your name) just marks you as a wannabe.
Now if you have a window decal or license plate holder that marks you as an M fan, that's different - it doesn't make a claim.

That said, if the claim is as absurd as to clearly fall into parody, it's different. Like the GT emblem I saw on a 2CV, or an old BMW 1600 with Spirit of Ecstasy on the hood.

Be proud of what you have - what you don't have doesn't in any way diminish what you do have.

Pretty much everything you said is incorrect.

1. The M3 has only 414 horsepower, and the 1M has 335. With the JB4 stg 2 and e85, my X1 is just over 400 horsepower at the crank. Even without e85, my X1 is still faster than a 1M.

2. The vast majority of M cars are sold with automatic gearboxes

3. The brakes on the 35i are actually bigger than the 28i's and are quite good.

4. Weight distribution is nearly 50/50. What are you talking about?

I haven't added an emblem to my x1, but it doesn't change the fact that the 35i M sport is practically an "M" car. Things would be different if BMW had never come out with the X5 M or X6 M, but now that they have, there is practically no differentiation between the 35i M sport and what they would come out with a X1 M. Again, I'll run down the list for you:

The X 1 35i M sport already has:

1. M suspension
2. M DTC and stability control software
3. More power routed to the rear wheels than the non-m version
4. 19 inch M wheels and p-zero tires
5. M specific bodywork
6. M badges on the sills, steering wheel, and wheels
7. With the JB4, a 0-60 faster than the M3's and a 12.9 1/4 mile - faster than a Cayenne turbo S
8. Nearly 50/50 weight distribution.

So again, what's missing from a X1 "m" ?
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      10-21-2012, 08:20 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
So again, what's missing from a X1 "m" ?
While you are right that your X1 may be more powerful, and better performing than the 1M or anything else for that matter, what is missing is BMW calling your vehicle an X1M.

You, of course, can name and label your own vehicle anything you want. However, most believe badging a vehicle is a function of the manufacturer. So, don't be surprised that to many, badging an X1 as an M makes as much sense as badging it an X5 or S1000RR.
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      10-21-2012, 11:53 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
Pretty much everything you said is incorrect.

1. The M3 has only 414 horsepower, and the 1M has 335. With the JB4 stg 2 and e85, my X1 is just over 400 horsepower at the crank. Even without e85, my X1 is still faster than a 1M.
The 1 series M was never sold at the same time as the 35i, and aftermarket trimming never changed the model. Comparing with older cars is disingenuous, and you might as well call your vehicle a supercar then, since it is probably faster than the M1 too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
So again, what's missing from a X1 "m" ?
Being developed by BMW Motorsports, for a start?

If it helps, think of BMW M as a different car brand from BMW, much like Acura is a different brand from Honda, and Lexus is a different brand from Toyota. Or, to put it another way, you can trim and soup up an Alfa-Romeo to beyond Maserati level, and put a Maserati steering wheel in it, but that doesn't make it a Maserati.
(And some of the above mentioned cars are more similar than the X1 to any M, building on the same platform. The E84 isn't used by BMW M at all).

Enjoy your X1 as an X1. It's a great entry level BMW. Be proud of that. I am.
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      10-21-2012, 06:08 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Grovsnus View Post
Or, to put it another way, you can trim and soup up an Alfa-Romeo to beyond Maserati level, and put a Maserati steering wheel in it, but that doesn't make it a Maserati.
Aside from the fact that BMW M is really not nearly as separate as they used to be, and the M sport X1 35i absolutely has several components developed by the M division including the suspension and DTC programming, you probably picked about the worst possible example. The 8C is literally a Maserati. How do I know?

My father has one, and the dealer sells both. The Alfa is even built at the Maserati factory. Same engine, same drivetrain, etc, etc etc. Don't take my word for it though - go drive them. I have.

Once again, I'm not saying the X1 35i is technically an M car. I don't even have an M badge on mine. All I'm saying is that the only difference between a JB4 35i M sport and a theoretical X1 M is the badge on the back. If someone was going to slap an M badge on a BMW, this would be the most logical one to do so. After all, it already has 6 of them on the damn car.

Last edited by paradoxical3; 10-21-2012 at 08:43 PM.
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      10-22-2012, 02:17 PM   #31
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There is quite a bit more to an M car than horsepower. This is why people buy M3s and not tuned 335i's, nor does any M3 owner care that a tuned 335i may be quicker. You are really missing the point.

s badge, maybe... X1 xdrive35is .. at maximum. When BMW does their little marketing exercise which is basically just a very conservative turbo tune without any other worthwhile upgrades, they slap an s badge on it and people eat it up. So that might be a good choice here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
So again, what's missing from a X1 "m" ?
- extensive use of weight saving components
- a real transmission
- limited slip differential (read: M variable diff)
- reinforced chassis
- tuning backed by warranty
- larger side bolsters
and the list goes on.

Sounds to me like you have never even driven an M car. Furthermore, you keep comparing the car to the 1M. The X1 will never be faster around any circuit ever than a stock 1M without tens of thousands of dollars of tuning. No idea why you are bothering to compare them. It's a freaking SUV.
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      10-22-2012, 02:58 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by stefan View Post
There is quite a bit more to an M car than horsepower. This is why people buy M3s and not tuned 335i's, nor does any M3 owner care that a tuned 335i may be quicker. You are really missing the point.
Actually, you're missing the point. I agree that there's a lot more to a M car than horsepower. I'm just saying that the M sport package x35i already has most of those things. I don't know what your deal is - maybe you're from the UK and haven't seen the American M sport package yet?

Quote:

- extensive use of weight saving components
Yeah, no. Curb weight X5 x50i 5379lbs. Curb weight X5M 5368lbs. So much for your theory.

Quote:
- a real transmission
Really? Because the X5M has a ZF 6 speed auto - and so does the X1 35i M Sport. Fail once again.

Quote:
- limited slip differential (read: M variable diff)
X5M and the X1 both have X drive....lol

Quote:
- reinforced chassis
Link please?

Quote:
- tuning backed by warranty
I'll give you this - so far, your main arguing point for an M car is "warranty." Nice.

Quote:
- larger side bolsters
The X1 M Sport already has sport seats with large, fully inflatable side bolsters.


Quote:
Sounds to me like you have never even driven an M car.
Actually, based on your inaccurate info above, it appears that you've never driven one besides your M3. And you've clearly never driven an M sport SUV. I've driven the e46 and e92 M3's, as well as the 2012 X6M.

And once again, in addition to the above things, the M Sport X1 already has an M suspension, M steering wheel, M wheels, M tires, M bodywork, and M DTC software. I mean, the steering wheel, wheels and tires, side sills, and even the seats can literally bolt right into "real" M models.

Quote:
No idea why you are bothering to compare them.
Because the X1 is a lifted 1 series? You're aware that they are based on the same platform, and that you can even interchange suspension and exhaust parts, right? Hell they even have the same engine.

Quote:
It's a freaking SUV.
So are the X5M and the X6M - "real" M cars according to BMW. This is exactly my point - your beloved days of hardcore M cars are gone forever. So if the only metric you use to define a "real" M car is BMW's badging, than the X1 35i M Sport is pretty damn close. Including the SIX M badges that come on the car stock.

Last edited by paradoxical3; 10-22-2012 at 03:03 PM.
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      10-22-2012, 03:08 PM   #33
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Good lord, you give me tired head. I'll say it again. I've owned M Cars and tuned non-M Cars. There is a difference. If you want a silly sticker that anyone in the know will realize is a farce, rock it with pride. Who cares?
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      10-22-2012, 03:10 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Good lord, you give me tired head. I'll say it again. I've owned M Cars and tuned non-M Cars. There is a difference. If you want a silly sticker that anyone in the know will realize is a farce, rock it with pride. Who cares?
Excellent job refuting my points above

Look, I get what you're saying - and you're right in terms of the M3. A M sport 335 is entirely different than the M3. But for the X1, unless they swap out the engine, there would be truly minimal difference between the X1 M Sport and the X1M.
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      10-22-2012, 03:22 PM   #35
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If there would be an X1 M version it would for sure not be a "real" M car (like the M3), but rather like the M135i. It just wouldn't make sense to develope such a car for Motorsport (and BMW) and I hope they concentrate on the next M3 right now.
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      10-22-2012, 03:35 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
Excellent job refuting my points above

Look, I get what you're saying - and you're right in terms of the M3. A M sport 335 is entirely different than the M3. But for the X1, unless they swap out the engine, there would be truly minimal difference between the X1 M Sport and the X1M.
Just curious, have you driven a 1M Coupe, a 335is and a 135i? There's very little difference between the non M cars and a huge difference between them and the M. I realize you're trying to steer this towards the X5M side of things, and you're right that it really doesn't have the differential between the M and regular models, but just because there's one dumb sibling, it doesn't mean the others are equally challenged.
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      10-22-2012, 03:43 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
Actually, you're missing the point. I agree that there's a lot more to a M car than horsepower. I'm just saying that the M sport package x35i already has most of those things. I don't know what your deal is - maybe you're from the UK and haven't seen the American M sport package yet?
I have. Msport != M. Example, on M sport packages, the suspension IS not the same as the M cars. We're talking extensive use of aluminum vs heavier metals in cfa, rta, etc. Not to mention tuning and geometries including camber and end links are also different. M sport is just a tigher suspension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
Yeah, no. Curb weight X5 x50i 5379lbs. Curb weight X5M 5368lbs. So much for your theory.
Don't be insulting, it's not a theory. I said nothing about weight. I said weight saving components. Take a look under the rear bumper of an M3. You'll see CF in place of steel forming the rear bumper support. The roof is CF. The hood is lighweight aluminum. The body panels are lightened, etc. It's not a 3-series lightweight, it's an M3 employing exotic materials (CF and aluminum)

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Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
Really? Because the X5M has a ZF 6 speed auto - and so does the X1 35i M Sport. Fail once again.
Somewhat true; however they are completely differently tuned. The X1 has a pedestrian 6 speed auto with horrendous gear ratios and software that protects the transmission from heat. The X5M on the other hand is specifically tuned, and also has an entirely different control layout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
X5M and the X1 both have X drive....lol
And finally, how I know you've done 0 research. The X5M and X6M using a modified/enhanced xdrive system featuring torque vectoring. If you don't know what this is, or what it means for track driving, but please look it up. Your X1 will understeer off the racetrack on turn 1, while the X5M and X6M won't.

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Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
Link please?
Don't have one. Just go look under an X5 and an X5M. Observe the suspension setups. AFAIK it also has an improved driveshaft. Some other items that will be more difficult to notice will be bushings that are of stiffer material, engine and tranny mounts that are stiffer, etc.

Let's not forget as well, it has an actual M engine (s63tu featuring MANY cylinder and contact point reinforcements) which will run high rev limit and high hp all day without issue.. where as I'd be damned worried about your OTS tuned N55. I don't have a link.. but use some common sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
I'll give you this - so far, your main arguing point for an M car is "warranty." Nice.
Can't tell if serious.. but that's a big deal when you want big power. One gives it to you and will fix your problems when something goes wrong. The other will cost you upwards of $25,000 in the event of major engine failure.


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Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
The X1 M Sport already has sport seats with large, fully inflatable side bolsters.
Did not realize this, you may have a point here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
Actually, based on your inaccurate info above, it appears that you've never driven one besides your M3. And you've clearly never driven an M sport SUV. I've driven the e46 and e92 M3's, as well as the 2012 X6M.
I have had every generation of M3 except E30. I've owned pedestrian BMWs including an E36. The most disappointing of the bunch was my 135i, which taught me that non-M cars, particularly the turbo'ed M sport vehicles are NOTHING like their M counterparts.

When the 135i came out in 2008, I was one of the first to get one. There was plenty of talk at that time about putting an M badge on it because "it's pretty much an M car". Switching from a 135i to an E46 M3 reaffirmed my decision to not sheepishly follow the others. It also taught me the value of that badge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
And once again, in addition to the above things, the M Sport X1 already has an M suspension, M steering wheel, M wheels, M tires, M bodywork, and M DTC software. I mean, the steering wheel, wheels and tires, side sills, and even the seats can literally bolt right into "real" M models.
Again, M-sport does NOT mean it was taken from an M car. On all fronts there. And really, DSC software? Alright.. let me know how that works out for you at a track. (Your brakes will be fried from the e-diff and you'll have amazing understeer... despite your "M" stability setting)


Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
Because the X1 is a lifted 1 series? You're aware that they are based on the same platform, and that you can even interchange suspension and exhaust parts, right? Hell they even have the same engine.
The 135i is nothing like an M car. I've owned one. Let me know how trying to put M exhaust or M suspension on your X1 goes though.


I feel the need to qualify this post. I am very interested in the X1 and as soon as it ships with a modern transmission and N55, I'll be writing my cheque. But you won't see me comparing it to a vehicle built by BMW Motorsport.
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      10-23-2012, 07:21 AM   #38
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BMW sure went out of their way to make half M cars then. The bodywork, suspension, wheels, steering wheel, sills, dead pedal, all WERE developed by Motorsport division and installed on these cars. So how do you classify it then X1 1/2M? Its not just cosmetic, BMW did integrate a lot of M into these cars plastering 10 M logos on it.
If BMW did come out with a X1M specific I could only see them possibly flaring the fenders out a bit, upgrading the brakes a bit more, lowering the stance a little and adding a quad exhaust since that seems to be a trademark of M cars lately. Other than that, they certainly wouldnt make it as fast as a JB4 tuned X1. Its pretty dam close, but I can see both sides arguements, the bottom line is BMW didnt want to make a X1M so why try and represent it as such, but on the other hand it looks kind of cool with the badgeing, and its not like its a stock X1 sporting an M badge, there are already 10 others on the car.
BTW, I think the X1 is built on the 3 series wagon platform not the 1 series?
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      10-23-2012, 08:11 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
Because the X1 is a lifted 1 series? You're aware that they are based on the same platform, and that you can even interchange suspension and exhaust parts, right? Hell they even have the same engine.
It has more in common with the 3-series touring wagon than any other BMW. And pray tell which 1-series car that has interchangable suspension parts with an X1 35i M-sport?

The M55 engine is the same as used in many models, including the 335i and X6 xDrive 35i, so that point is rather moot. If anything, it was used in the 535i GT first. Does that make the 135i or X1 a 5-series or a GT? Hell, no.
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      10-23-2012, 09:26 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by djminkin View Post
BMW sure went out of their way to make half M cars then. The bodywork, suspension, wheels, steering wheel, sills, dead pedal, all WERE developed by Motorsport division and installed on these cars. So how do you classify it then X1 1/2M? Its not just cosmetic, BMW did integrate a lot of M into these cars plastering 10 M logos on it.

Great point. I think the spirited discussion in this thread has proven that BMW has done a fantastic job of diluting the M line, or at the very least confusing all but the most knowledgeable BMW fans.
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      10-23-2012, 12:54 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djminkin View Post
BMW sure went out of their way to make half M cars then. The bodywork, suspension, wheels, steering wheel, sills, dead pedal, all WERE developed by Motorsport division and installed on these cars. So how do you classify it then X1 1/2M? Its not just cosmetic, BMW did integrate a lot of M into these cars plastering 10 M logos on it.
Stop, please you're killing me man. You have a nice, fast car that's great for everyday spirited driving and not in any way shape or form designed for a race track, despite what the 10 M logos might have you believe. I think most brand faithful are appalled at just how far out of their way they've been going to dilute/pimp out the M designation in the name of profit.
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      10-23-2012, 01:21 PM   #42
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Stop, please you're killing me man. You have a nice, fast car that's great for everyday spirited driving and not in any way shape or form designed for a race track, despite what the 10 M logos might have you believe. I think most brand faithful are appalled at just how far out of their way they've been going to dilute/pimp out the M designation in the name of profit.
Well I agree with some of your points but Im not sure I agree with your assessment of the brand faithful. The days of limited production cars are over. Being a long time BMW collector who has owned everything from the first motorsport car, the 2002 turbo, to the first Alpina colab car, the CSL, I dont necessarily fault BMW for going in that direction. There are plenty of people who want a piece of an M car but cant own a true one because of their specific needs or pocket. I have two small children, dont want an X5M so a X1 with Msport pack gives me that same sporty experience while still being plenty functional. Mercedes has done something similar with AMG.
Soon Mr. Bovensiepen will pass, and Alpina will be consumed by BMW and become their new line of limited specialty cars. I think BMW has purposely cannibalized "motorpsort" with this mind for the future.
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      10-23-2012, 01:45 PM   #43
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Soon Mr. Bovensiepen will pass, and Alpina will be consumed by BMW and become their new line of limited specialty cars. I think BMW has purposely cannibalized "motorpsort" with this mind for the future.
Dont think so, Alpina is already in the hands of his son.
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      10-23-2012, 01:57 PM   #44
djminkin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeRR View Post
Dont think so, Alpina is already in the hands of his son.
Yes but his son is the one who is talking to BMW. Senior didnt want to do it, thats why I say when he passes it will likely happen.
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