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      02-18-2011, 05:37 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
As advance as some may say about this I dont want a civic or focus engine in my bmw. Only makes sense if the platform is less than 2500 lbs.
With all due respect this is a stupid post.

Are you referring to the fact that the Turbo 4 has a small displacement? Could you please elaborate on what the weight of the car has to do with the displacement?
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      02-18-2011, 05:56 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwelvaar View Post
Don't forget to raise your BMW fanboy flag.

So you're saying that at this time, the pack is ahead of BMW?
VW/Audi has always been pretty good with 4 cilyinder turbo engines...
I'm afraid so. But then, 1-series apart, BMW has not had much incentive to be cutting edge with their 4-cyl petrols. UK only sells diesel X1s for example, and currently only a diesel X3.

I would imagine in the UK hardly anyone buys a petrol 3-series either. Their 4-cyl 2.0 petrol that you find in the 320i, 120i and the X1 sDrive18i that I've ordered is about 5 years behind I would say.

I would think this diesel trend runs across Europe, but US and other petrol-loving markets BMW need new efficient 4s. To be honest they're quite late to the party, compared to VW/Audi and others as well.

What's interesting is that as recently as about a year ago VW have been pushing customers toward their petrol engines - they found diesels expensive to make. And BMW have been pushing diesels - as they are doing now at the expo in US - they're trying to convert US customers.

Last edited by manicm; 02-18-2011 at 06:13 AM..
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      02-18-2011, 06:36 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manicm View Post
I'm afraid so. But then, 1-series apart, BMW has not had much incentive to be cutting edge with their 4-cyl petrols. UK only sells diesel X1s for example, and currently only a diesel X3.

I would imagine in the UK hardly anyone buys a petrol 3-series either. Their 4-cyl 2.0 petrol that you find in the 320i, 120i and the X1 sDrive18i that I've ordered is about 5 years behind I would say.

I would think this diesel trend runs across Europe, but US and other petrol-loving markets BMW need new efficient 4s. To be honest they're quite late to the party, compared to VW/Audi and others as well.
I agree, BMW are a bit behind with their petrols but in their defence they have always been performance biased. Recently they have been doing a lot of work getting the petrol engines emissions down but I think they have probably reached the limit of what they can do without ditching the I6's and adding a turbo to the 4's.

Different story on the diesel front, they are miles ahead of anyone else.

The one difficult market is of course the US with their love of big engines. This is going to change rather quickly I think as the sheer weight of international demand is going to mean the demise of the big capacity engines in small/medium cars. Of course there will be exceptions like the M3 etc but in general I think NA is going to be dragged kicking and screaming into this new era.
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      02-18-2011, 08:05 AM   #26
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the unique sound of the i6 was a major reason why I bought my 128i. without a i6, the car has less distinction.
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      02-18-2011, 08:12 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
There's no word yet if the turbo inline4 petrol engine will be available when the X1 makes its US debut this Fall.
South, while that may be the case, you may notice that the I6 powered X1s are gone from the bmw.com website. And it's not just the 28i model being changed over to the new N20, they have also removed the former 25i model completely. While this does not prove anything, I think the implication here is more than apparent - the I6 powered X1 is no longer available and will not be made available or produced ever again (except perhaps an N55 model, of which I remain a skeptic ).
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      02-18-2011, 08:19 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hppypaul View Post
They better lower the price since I won't pay extra to have a 4 vs the old I6.
Lower the price from what? The X1 has never been available in the US to begin with, so there is no basis for comparison here. Regardless of whether they raise the price, lower the price, or keep the price the same in some other geographic regions about the globe, the US price will be set based on market conditions here, including relative currency values as compared to other markets.

I think its safe to say that you will see a very competitive price for this vehicle. I would expect something close to the Acura RDX pricing, given that this is its closest competition.
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      02-18-2011, 08:26 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bklounge View Post
So which car was this engine tested in?
I'm not sure your frame of reference for this question, but you can assume it is currently being tested in the F2x 1 series, F3x 3 series, F1x 5 series, F25 X3, E89 Z4, and of course the E84 X1 since it will very soon become the volume gasoline engine for all these vehicles. It will probably even see duty in the E70 X5 in some countries.

If you just meant with respect to the journalists' comments in this thread - clearly they are testing the X1 xDrive28i.
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      02-18-2011, 08:31 AM   #30
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Your comment makes no sense, however, since this engine will offer performance that is as good or better than the naturally aspirated inline 6 it replaces. Also, there is no Civic or Focus with anwhere near 250hp, nor with a turbocharged engine in the US, although there will be the Focus ST Ecoboost in a year's time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
As advance as some may say about this I dont want a civic or focus engine in my bmw. Only makes sense if the platform is less than 2500 lbs.
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      02-18-2011, 08:44 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diver View Post
You can tune anything, but the turbo four ships with 1.2 bar of boost as compared to the N55 with .6. That should tell you that BMW has not left that much on the table for the tuners to play with.
That's not true, the EVO X stock boost is like 19-20psi, and trust me, there's plenty left on the table there. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see this engine put down 250whp with a tune.
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      02-18-2011, 08:49 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky13 View Post
How does the 6 have more power? Most versions of the current 2.8 NA have 230 or 240 HP, the turbo 4 has 245. Much more torque in the turbo 4 (about 15%) so better gas milage and more power.
In Europe, the old version of the X1 28i had an inline-6 with 258hp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
South, while that may be the case, you may notice that the I6 powered X1s are gone from the bmw.com website. And it's not just the 28i model being changed over to the new N20, they have also removed the former 25i model completely. While this does not prove anything, I think the implication here is more than apparent - the I6 powered X1 is no longer available and will not be made available or produced ever again (except perhaps an N55 model, of which I remain a skeptic ).
Sure, I added that reminder just in case BMW NA has different plans.


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      02-18-2011, 08:50 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdardashti View Post
Don't expect to see a drop in price. Not a penny. Prices are based on value, not features. As for as the general public, this is same value as the old 6 (better power, better fuel economy, but sure its a four (which is becoming coming) and no I6 sound (which most people won't care much about)).

And, this is going to be the common offering from the competitors in this space. Audi already has a 2.0T, and MB is apparently coming out with a turbo 4.
The Audi 4cyl is cheaper then their 6cyl, yes the BMW 4cyl will be cheaper. Why would anyone buy it if it wasn't.
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      02-18-2011, 08:58 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffnbluff View Post
That's not true, the EVO X stock boost is like 19-20psi, and trust me, there's plenty left on the table there. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see this engine put down 250whp with a tune.
1.2 bar=17.6 PSI which is getting into that stock EVO territory. It's nothing like starting at half that as with the N54/N55. Then factor in the anti tuning strategy started with the N55 an plan on this one being even more trick. Sure, an N55 can be tuned, but it is a whole different story from the N54. Isn't the EVO at the other end of the spectrum where boost may be increased simply by fiddling with the wastegate controls?

I think this is a good engine, but I would not buy into it thinking there is an easy 15% HP boost waiting.

Article on Proceed for EVO

http://www.insideline.com/mitsubishi...e-systems.html

Sounds to me like the boost was not changed all that much but the mixture and timing get major changes. Whether the BMW turbo four has these characteristics is unknown.
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      02-18-2011, 09:08 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
In Europe, the old version of the X1 28i had an inline-6 with 258hp.
Yep, similar to the engine used in the Z4 3.0i (though probably its either an N52 or N53, depending on region). In the US, they have been using the 28i badge to denote the lower power N52 (230hp to 240hp) while the 30i badge is for the higher power (255hp to 265hp) N52. Of course, since the X3 30i and X5 30i have been gone for some time now, only the Z4 still has the 30i designation. I am very curious to see how the 28i and 30i monikers are used going forward. For now anyway, it seems all N20 will have the same or very similar power. It leaves the question open as to whether both the 28i and 30i will be used somewhat arbitrarily depending on model, or if they will just badge them all 28i, or even if they will just badge them all 30i (in the US, I mean).

Quote:
Sure, I added that reminder just in case BMW NA has different plans.
I hear you - you're just waiting for the official word before stating things as fact. It seems to me that we should get word very soon, assuming that the Septmeber X1 date for the US is still a go (there was some talk of even further delay).

And, as SCOTT said in one of his posts both the Z4 and 5 series will get the N20 at that time as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e92miami View Post
The Audi 4cyl is cheaper then their 6cyl, yes the BMW 4cyl will be cheaper. Why would anyone buy it if it wasn't.
They aren't talking about the 4 cyl being cheaper than the 6 cylinder it will be sold along side of, they are talking about it's price relative to the outgoing N52 I6 that it will be replacing.
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      02-18-2011, 09:14 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e92miami View Post
The Audi 4cyl is cheaper then their 6cyl, yes the BMW 4cyl will be cheaper. Why would anyone buy it if it wasn't.
Yes with Audi it is but then the 4cyl is not a replacement for the 6cyl. Cannot speak for NA but in Europe I highly doubt if it will cheaper. At best the same price but more likely slightly more expensive. Why? Because it produces more power, is cleaner and more efficient. Logic does not come into it, only economics. A clue is also in the designation old I6 was a 2.8i, new T4 still a 2.8i (not 2.0ti for example) No way they are going to drop the price on the "old 2.8i" vs "new 2.8i"

As an example Fiat have brought out a new 2cyl 0.9l engine (TwinAir) in the Fiat 500 over here. Its quite a bit more expensive than the 4cyl 1.2l and 1.4l. Why? More power etc etc.
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      02-18-2011, 09:23 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
.... I am very curious to see how the 28i and 30i monikers are used going forward. For now anyway, it seems all N20 will have the same or very similar power. It leaves the question open as to whether both the 28i and 30i will be used somewhat arbitrarily depending on model, or if they will just badge them all 28i, or even if they will just badge them all 30i (in the US, I mean).

...
It seems that BMW are going to follow Mercedes with their new designations, ie they have removed the link between the engine size and what they actually call it.

For example the merc 180/200/230/250 CGI engines are all 1.8l T4's!
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      02-18-2011, 09:42 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mario486 View Post
It seems that BMW are going to follow Mercedes with their new designations, ie they have removed the link between the engine size and what they actually call it.

For example the merc 180/200/230/250 CGI engines are all 1.8l T4's!
Absolutely. But BMW has been on that route for about the 4-5 years anyway. The 116d, 118d, 120d, 123d are all 2.0L T4s too.

And yes, I meant it won't be cheaper than the N52, not the remaining 6 (N55). Thanks!
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      02-18-2011, 09:45 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdardashti View Post
... But BMW has been on that route for about the 4-5 years anyway. The 116d, 118d, 120d, 123d are all 2.0L T4s too.

...
True, now that you mention it.
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      02-18-2011, 10:11 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdardashti View Post
Absolutely. But BMW has been on that route for about the 4-5 years anyway. The 116d, 118d, 120d, 123d are all 2.0L T4s too.
Yes, not to mention the rest of the entire current and recent past BMW engine lineup for that matter, including the N51, N52, N53, N54, N55, N62, N63. So, right, I wasn't really talking about the displacement matching the model name (as there's no hope of that happening - plus I don't really care ).

Instead I was referring to the fact that while the 3.0L N52 (or N51/N3) currently gets different badges (28i and 30i in the US, and 25i too still in some countries), it remains unclear whether then N20, and specifically the N20B20, will be handled the same way.

Personally, I think for simplicity's sake, it would be nice to see this:

N20B20 = 30i
N55B30 = 40i
N63B44 = 50i
N74B60 = 60i (hey whaddya know - it matches up! )

Granted I am completely ignoring the diesel range, and the upcoming 1.6L I4 turbo and 1.xL I3 engine range (mainly because we don't get those in the US, except a couple I6 diesels).
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      02-18-2011, 11:46 AM   #41
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There is no way BMW will lower the price of any models in the US when they switch from the 6 to the turbo 4. They had a press release from the President or VP of BMW North America 6 months to a year ago stating that fact. I've had the inline 6 in several X3's at both 230HP and 260 HP and would still rather have the torque of the turbo 4. While the 6 is a great engine at high rpm its not great off the line with an automatic, it needs to be rev'd just like the 3 E46 M3's I also owned. You never got much of a kick in the pants from the E46 until you hit very high rpms.
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      02-18-2011, 11:56 AM   #42
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Autoweek Article

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      02-18-2011, 12:15 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Your comment makes no sense, however, since this engine will offer performance that is as good or better than the naturally aspirated inline 6 it replaces. Also, there is no Civic or Focus with anwhere near 250hp, nor with a turbocharged engine in the US, although there will be the Focus ST Ecoboost in a year's time.
It's not power, it's the NVH of the motor. I still haven't met a 4 banger that I've liked. By BMW putting a 4 banger which essentially has the same harmonics as a cheap ass Civic, it's a downgrade. I6 will always be a smoother engine. The saying goes "you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig"
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      02-18-2011, 12:53 PM   #44
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Well, so far the reviewers do not seem to have noted this as an issue. It doesn't mean it won't be noticeable by some potential owners, but I suspect you'll the part of a very small minority. You may note that BMW has been building four cylinder luxury cars for decades now with much success, as have their European competitors. They obviously understand how to keep NVH at an acceptable level, though I'm sure they probably can't please everyone in this regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magbarn View Post
It's not power, it's the NVH of the motor. I still haven't met a 4 banger that I've liked. By BMW putting a 4 banger which essentially has the same harmonics as a cheap ass Civic, it's a downgrade. I6 will always be a smoother engine. The saying goes "you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig"
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