BMW M says future bleak for manual transmission, M cars to top out at 600 HP for now

[tareemaa]

The day they stop offering a manual M3, I'll stop buying these cars new. Probably jump into an e46 and maybe even grab an e90. It'll be a sad day the day they officially announce discontinuing the 6mt. I'm a bimmer head because of their dedication to the driving experience and being true to purist, truly shitty news.

Suddenly that Alfa Romeo is looking even more enticing 😉

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by E90M3JETS

I love manual and learned how to drive in a manual car; however, the DCT is a great transmission. Like turbos and electric steering BMW and other car makers will be forced to retire the manual transmission soon. I heard from a relative who works at BMW USA that the new M5 won't be offered with manual transmission.

Another item he does not talk about it, but will also have the same fate as the manual transmission will be the engines. Soon all engines will some hybrid assist and no longer will be 100% petrol engines.

My $0.02

wouldn't mind hybrid+petrol engine. will be beast and instantaneous response......in manual.

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by sdshah

Get with the times and stop denying technology.

Manual drivers buy blockbuster stock.

Originally Posted by antych

Don't buy a technologically advanced car then. Vote with your wallet, buy something primitive that lets you enjoy the ride in the way you want. You save money too, so stop whining.

Again, this attitude is exactly the problem. Just because something technologically more advanced exists, I should feel compelled or be forced to buy it? Will you guys also say to stop denying technology when fully autonomous cars are available? That we should just give up the joy of driving and accept fully automated transportation because the technology exists?

What is wrong with having a choice of transmission on an M car or other performance oriented car for that matter? Because modern cars are technologically advanced, options or choices shouldn't exist? The fact there currently is a choice between the DCT and 6MT allows us to vote with our wallet and save money if we decide to opt for the 6MT. Why should the choice of having a 6MT be limited to some primitive car? Having choices are a good thing. I didn't realize it was considered whining these days.

You buy the car with the "technologically advanced" transmission you want, and I'll buy it with the "proven, reliable, and engaging" transmission I want.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Great point that I hadn't even considered. My guess is that even if manuals currently represent a higher percentage of M cars than convertibles, the convertibles may not be losing market share like the manuals are, so BMW would be willing to keep a steadily low-volume option but not one that has seen steady decline with no expectation of recovery, regardless of how well either option aligns with the M philosophy.

Besides, what do you expect BMW to do, stop being able to sell any M cars in Los Angeles and Miami??

Watch it now....I'm in LA.

The only time I have other m3's trying to race me is some dude in an e93 with some vanity plate like B3ASTM3 or something like that

[landaishan]

I'm 33 and currently on my 4th car which is a 2008 M3 E92 Manual. Every one of my cars have been Manual Transmissions and I specifically enjoy driving Manuals because they are fun and engaging. They require skill, practice and mastery.

Automatic cars with no clutch are a snooze fest and I don't enjoy driving them at all. I'd even go so far as to say that all drivers licenses should require the ability to drive a Manual. I don't have any intention to stop driving Manual cars in the next 20 years. Even tho I love BMW's, I will strongly consider purchasing cars from other manufacturers that offer Manuals in the future.

[tareemaa]

Originally Posted by lfelunden

Production cost of making a reliable engine that can do 100000miles with minor issues is high. You don't see a Ferrari 458 or any other exotic do high mileage like a BMW. Also on the autobahn the M5, RS7 E63 eats almost all Porsches... You better buy a family saloon then

That's cuz many exotics have flat plane cranks and are high revving motors that need constant maintenance.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by landaishan

I'm 33 and currently on my 4th car which is a 2008 M3 E92 Manual. Every one of my cars have been Manual Transmissions and I specifically enjoy driving Manuals because they are fun and engaging. They require skill, practice and mastery.

Automatic cars with no clutch are a snooze fest and I don't enjoy driving them at all. I'd even go so far as to say that all drivers licenses should require the ability to drive a Manual. I don't have any intention to stop driving Manual cars in the next 20 years. Even tho I love BMW's, I will strongly consider purchasing cars from other manufacturers that offer Manuals in the future.

Good man!! I'm 39 y/o, learned to drive on a stick, and have never owned anything but. Even if I lost my right arm I think I'd still figure out a way to drive a stick!

Solid first post for you as well, welcome to the fold!

[cmk227]

If they remove manual from there lineup they will lose me as a client. Might not mean much to them but that how I feel right now.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

If MTs are faster around tracks why do race cars have paddle shifters?

Reliability.

And that's why I've stopped watching F1, boring...

[shaytun]

Originally Posted by Kyle B

Not surprising. Heck, Ferrari of all manufacturers did away with manual transmissions so it doesn't surprise me to see BMW follow suit. BMW hopefully will focus on further weight reduction and handling, that's far more important than bhp and transmission type.

Ferrari had crappy manuals, though many of us, me included, would prefer to have one in manual. But Porsche and BMW have been known for have nice manual transmissions. I feel that Porsche guys, especially the smaller GT crowd still crave manual. And Porsche is beginning to listen. If a 991 manual is a go, Porsche can happily take my money.

[gearboxtrouble]

Not a big surprise on either count. We're already at the reasonable limit of what can be done with RWD only drivetrain without using a bespoke chassis. BMW would never, ever consider making an AWD only M car (I don't count the SUVs as true M cars) so in the interests maintaining parity between the RWD and any optional AWD versions more horsepower isn't really an option. The problem with the current M5/6 isn't that it lacks power, its that they carry enormous weights around. If they keep the current output but work on getting both into the 3700 - 3800 lb range and they'll have done a fine job.

As for the 6MT I think with the M5/6 at least, its time is up. The new turbo engines are genuinely better suited to the DCT and its pretty clear that future drive trains will be optimized around that gearbox. At some point there will be an M car with some sort of hybrid KERS setup and developing a manual transmission to work with more than just an engine is unviable. A DCT only M5/6 will be a trial balloon for BMW. If there's no surprisingly widespread backlash against the move, they'll likely make the next M3/4 DCT only too.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by shaytun

Ferrari had crappy manuals, though many of us, me included, would prefer to have one in manual. But Porsche and BMW have been known for have nice manual transmissions. I feel that Porsche guys, especially the smaller GT crowd still crave manual. And Porsche is beginning to listen. If a 991 manual is a go, Porsche can happily take my money.

991 manual is already available, albeit with a 7MT that hasn't been especially well-received. Or did you mean a 991 GT manual?

[Jashley73]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Rather they stick with 6MT, further develop weight loss tech, and focus on creating 400-500whp cars with weights ~ 2800-3000 lbs.

You can advance 6MT. What about rev anticipation (rev matching) to help speed up the shifts? Some manu's doing that now. Pretty cool. I'd still rather do it myself, but as long as I could turn it off I'd be happy.

You know, you don't *have* to lift your foot when you're shifting, right?

[Oaktree]

Yay, then they can stop fucking people over with a $2100 DCT transmission expense

[Jashley73]

Originally Posted by Needbmwpartzz

My guess is they just don't want to develop two separate trannys for a vehicle and just draft and design one per car model,thus saving money by streamlining production/development and other processes.

This.

They still have to *BUILD* the car with the one-off manual transmission, on the same assembly line as all the other cars. Unless any of you are involved in assembly/manufacturing engineering, you cannot even fathom how expensive it would be to accomodate a ~1% probability of installing this transmission into the car.

Oh, and don't forget all the added design/testing/compatibility time...

Oh, and all the vendor/purchasing/quality/documentation/logistics time and issues for the ~1% probability too...

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Don't get me wrong - I may be the worlds biggest Manual-Transmission fan, but I cannot fault them when it just doesn't make any sense - no, scratch that - it makes negative sense for them to continue offering manual transmissions. They may be a $0-cost option, but in reality, they are probably losing money for every M/T sold... As time goes on, that loss will keep increasing, and we all know what the bean-counters will do then...

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

Folding Hardtops are on their way out, because of weight, complexity, and lack of room in the trunk. Want a folding hardtop? Then go buy a Volvo.

The 6er Vert is Sexy because it has what any real Convertible would have, a Cloth Top!

Soft tops are for covered wagons. Hard tops are the future. I've had a soft top sliced with a razor knife way to many times in the past and stuff stolen. Never had it happen with a hardtop. Also soft tops add no rigidity to the car so they handle like crap. At least a hard top helps when it's up. Finally a hardtop lasts longer instead of looking ratty in 3 yrs, requires less maintenance, and is way more quiet road noise wise. Both take up similar trunk space. I've had a half dozen verts. The hardtop is superior in every way.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by Jashley73

This.

They still have to *BUILD* the car with the one-off manual transmission, on the same assembly line as all the other cars. Unless any of you are involved in assembly/manufacturing engineering, you cannot even fathom how expensive it would be to accomodate a ~1% probability of installing this transmission into the car.

Oh, and don't forget all the added design/testing/compatibility time...

Oh, and all the vendor/purchasing/quality/documentation/logistics time and issues for the ~1% probability too...

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't get me wrong - I may be the worlds biggest Manual-Transmission fan, but I cannot fault them when it just doesn't make any sense - no, scratch that - it makes negative sense for them to continue offering manual transmissions. They may be a $0-cost option, but in reality, they are probably losing money for every M/T sold... As time goes on, that loss will keep increasing, and we all know what the bean-counters will do then...

So charge $2000 extra for the manual instead of the auto. That would be a $4000 price increase The 1% would gladly pay it to keep the manual.

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

A touch pedantic or even paranoia over the last few pages when it will be the larger flagship models that will dispose of manual transmissions, I don't envision it happening on the M2,M3 and M4 for at least another generation.
Some are getting too carried away.

For a vehicle like the M5 it makes perfect sense as the rest of the world can live without a manual transmission option.

Better not happen on nonM 3 series either

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by Jashley73

This.

They still have to *BUILD* the car with the one-off manual transmission, on the same assembly line as all the other cars. Unless any of you are involved in assembly/manufacturing engineering, you cannot even fathom how expensive it would be to accomodate a ~1% probability of installing this transmission into the car.

Oh, and don't forget all the added design/testing/compatibility time...

Oh, and all the vendor/purchasing/quality/documentation/logistics time and issues for the ~1% probability too...

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't get me wrong - I may be the worlds biggest Manual-Transmission fan, but I cannot fault them when it just doesn't make any sense - no, scratch that - it makes negative sense for them to continue offering manual transmissions. They may be a $0-cost option, but in reality, they are probably losing money for every M/T sold... As time goes on, that loss will keep increasing, and we all know what the bean-counters will do then...

Theres more to a decision than just the immediate financial benefit.

[ethanjoon]

Originally Posted by sdshah

Get with the times and stop denying technology.

Manual drivers buy blockbuster stock.

Lol. I'd rather "deny technology" then deny the satisfaction I receive shifting my 6-speed. If you can't understand that, that's fine. That's why the automatic was created.

[Jashley73]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

So charge $2000 extra for the manual instead of the auto. That would be a $4000 price increase The 1% would gladly pay it to keep the manual.

Buddy, that sounds fine and dandy, but $2000 per car probably still isn't enough to offset the added development & program costs for a manual transmission. Especially as their numbers will continue to decline. When you see tooling quotes for *1* assembly machine, equivalent to the cost of a *fleet* of new M-cars, you'll begin to understand the astronomical costs of factory assembly & automation. To say nothing of the development/support costs that come with the added part(s) on the manual/trans cars.

Even if the manual transmission cost the same money as the auto, which it may, there's probably, *easily* 300-500 unique parts to the manual-transmission car, including things like the pedal assembly, shifter related parts, clutch/throw-out assembly, transmission mounts, driveshaft & related parts, and so on.

Oh, and don't forget - all those special mounts/cross-members will require dedicated mounting holes/brackets in the other frame/uni-body parts, so now we have to make accomodations at the chassis level, again, all for a ~1% probability.

And all of those special parts come with a full staff of purchasing buyers, quality managers, program managers, design engineers, manufacturing engineers, tooling engineers, etc...

And that's just at the BMW-OEM level. Start trickling down to the Tier-1 & Tier-2 level suppliers, (ZF - the transmission maker...) and the problem just keeps going. Again - manufacturing, tooling, and administrative costs to keep a legacy product in production...

Starting to get the picture?

[bmw1racer]

Originally Posted by lowbudgethero

but then you know they will eventually make them fwd

Yikes.