The Shock/Strut Thread

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by tw4life

Bmw X1 sDrive28i ///M-Sport

Springs
H&R sport springs Manufacturer Part #: 28959-2

Shocks
Blistein B6 (still contemplating)

Don't put the springs on without the shocks/struts. Double the work, and you will wind up wanting them. Promise.

[fw_fw]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

There are no front external bumpstops when you move to the Bilsteins. There are internal stops inside the strut housings.

It's pretty easy to open it up and trim it down if you want to be sure you won't bottom out.

But you can't fit an OEM bumpstop over an inverted strut, the "shaft" is like 3x as thick. Nor would you want to with the internal stops.

Interesting, I was going off of E9x suspension lowering threads that discussed bumpstop changes for the fronts. I didn't realize that the E84s are that different in the front, being that the E84 platform is basically an xDrive E9x platform, and not having received the Bilstein B6 fronts yet to compare. Looks like the front B6s are going to be installed then as they are, as I sure as heck am not going to mess with the internal parts.

Oh well, not the first time I've purchased something ahead of time that I ended up not needing, and I'm sure it won't be the last...

[fw_fw]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

Don't put the springs on without the shocks/struts. Double the work, and you will wind up wanting them. Promise.

This.....while I don't have the front struts yet due to backorder, just putting on the back B6s alone with the H&Rs makes a world of difference compared to the stock shock/H&R spring combo.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by fw_fw

Interesting, I was going off of E9x suspension lowering threads that discussed bumpstop changes for the fronts. I didn't realize that the E84s are that different in the front, being that the E84 platform is basically an xDrive E9x platform, and not having received the Bilstein B6 fronts yet to compare. Looks like the front B6s are going to be installed then as they are, as I sure as heck am not going to mess with the internal parts.

Oh well, not the first time I've purchased something ahead of time that I ended up not needing, and I'm sure it won't be the last...

All Bilstein B6/8 front struts will have the same issue, including E90, or on my E82. I'm sure the threads you are reading talking about lowering in conjunction with other strut types (OE, Koni, etc.). Any inverted monotube Bilstein has internal stops.

You can easily sell those stops to anyone lowering and not running Billys!

They're not internal parts like you're thinking. Take a look. You're just opening the housing. All of the guts are still completely sealed/separate. You're not messing with any seals, etc.

http://www.brazeauracing.com/bumpstops.htm

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...4.html?t=99244

Super easy to do, and will save you hours if they're too long and you have to pull them back off the car again.

Honestly, I'm not sure I can bring myself to NOT do it. 15 minutes worth of work to potential save 2 hours. Ugg, I have to do it.

[PrematureApex]

Ahh heck, I may trim mine tonight on my kitchen counter. I'll take pics.

[fw_fw]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

Ahh heck, I may trim mine tonight on my kitchen counter. I'll take pics.

Cool, let us know how things turn out. Reading the 2 links you posted there may be some hope that Bilstein put in appropriate size stops for us.

Just don't use SWMBO's good kitchen knife to trim it......we'd hate to lose you!!! LOL!

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by fw_fw

Cool, let us know how things turn out. Reading the 2 links you posted there may be some hope that Bilstein put in appropriate size stops for us.

I mean, the B6s are meant for stock springs, so I'm not hopeful they put in a shorter stop. We're probably right on the verge of OK, being only slightly lowered...

But still, I just can't risk doing this job for a third time if it bottoms out at all. Worth the the 15 minutes now I think.

Originally Posted by fw_fw

Just don't use SWMBO's good kitchen knife to trim it......we'd hate to lose you!!! LOL!

I'll be sure to do it before she gets home.

[fw_fw]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

I mean, the B6s are meant for stock springs, so I'm not hopeful they put in a shorter stop. We're probably right on the verge of OK, being only slightly lowered...

But still, I just can't risk doing this job for a third time if it bottoms out at all.

The real question is how will we know for sure that Bilstein didn't shorten them already without testing it out in the "from the factory configuration". You are probably right in that they are B6s that can be used with stock springs and in most likelihood are too long, but......

I guess shortening them and having that little extra travel shouldn't have any negative side effects the more one thinks about it.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by fw_fw

The real question is how will we know for sure that Bilstein didn't shorten them already without testing it out in the "from the factory configuration". You are probably right in that they are B6s that can be used with stock springs and in most likelihood are too long, but......

I guess shortening them and having that little extra travel shouldn't have any negative side effects the more one thinks about it.

Well, two things. First, in the past, they haven't, hence it's so common to trim them to improve the ride on a variety of makes and models.

The other part is, these cars are meant to use the stops as part of the suspension, so they like to keep the overall travel pretty similar to the stop, so it gets into the stop about when it would from the factory.

You're right, it's all a guess. And what I should be doing is trying them first, and seeing if it's an issue...

Bottom line, I shouldn't have even tried the brings without the struts. I'm such a cheapskate. I can do it twice, three times and I'm pissed.

[AWF87M2]

Some of my X1 colleagues from Japan that work closely with (Studie Ag) told me that our M sport shocks/struts are better suited to be used along with either Eibach springs or AC Schnitzer Springs as they are linear rate, both of which are nearly impossible to obtain separately here in the states. The only way to obtain Eibachs is to buy the whole b12 kit, which is kinda lame.

[PrematureApex]

OK, put the front B6s on today. One side was a very, very large PITA. On the other for some reason the knuckle decided it could drop 2" lower than the other side and not pull the axle out. I didn't even have to use the spring comps. Took literally 15 minutes start to finish, vs. an hour for the other.

While I was at it, I pulled "pins" out of the top hats, maxing negative camber (you gain maybe -.4-.5 degrees).

Obviously, the struts are awesome. Can't believe I skimped to begin with. You can take aim at anything now, no bottoming out, no bouncing around, bit crisper turn-in...well worth it.

Internal Bump Stops

Before the install I did cut the "internal" bumpstops (they're just in the housing, not internal to the cartridge/guts of the shock). It literally took 5 minutes per.

I heated the nut on the bottom of the housing a bit to release the locktite. Not necessary, but made it easier. After the nut was off, the hex head/cartridge shaft threaded out of the body easily. Did I mention how easy it was?

The bump stop is a single piece (call it 4" maybe 3.5") with two segments (top 2" and bottom 2", ridge in between). The top is progressive. I cut the full length stop in half at the ridge, then cut the remaining bottom half, in half, removing about 1" of bump stop. I used the top 2" progressive half with the bottom linear 1" stacked. Why didn't I just cut 1" off the bottom? You have to use the bottom portion, as it's the only part of the stop with an internal diameter matching the strut shaft. You'll see what I mean.

I asked the wife if she wanted a Pure Stage 1 turbo upgrade for the car (~$1k), she said yes. :disco: Perfect timing, as my buddy just bought an '07 Cayman S, and is looking to track it. I'm thinking of showing up with the X1 on the M3s 255 RA1s and trying to run him down.

I'm wondering how it would hold up without it though, maybe just on race gas.

[Shock96]

Whew! Spring/shock overload!!

I am calling AC Schnitzer on Monday to see what they recommend with their springs.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by Shock96

Whew! Spring/shock overload!!

I am calling AC Schnitzer on Monday to see what they recommend with their springs.

I mean, what are they going to tell you? There aren't any other stand alone strut/shock options but for the B6s as far as I am aware. I guess you could get a set of custom sleeves made to fit over a set of Koni front struts...

Your spring rates are near stock, or at least not significnatly more (like 30%+). The B6s will be fine, generally 20% increase in dampening over stock. They work well with stock springs, as well as typical aftermarket sport/lowering springs.

[GrantE83]

I can't believe the debate over a set of shocks and springs.

I have run cheap coilovers on a e36 in the past with trimmed bump stops and no helper springs and they are fine until you hit a harsh pot hole - but lets be honest no suspension will ever feel brilliant.

People are getting way to aggressive and uptight over suspension. More so earlier on in the thread.

I'm getting springs and changing bushes first and trimming the bump stops - if I feel I need struts after wards I will take that avenue at a later date.

Trial and error. if your suspension was that important by the time you spend £200 on springs and £600 on shocks you may as well have bought coilovers anyway. But that's life. Get over it.

[Shock96]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

I mean, what are they going to tell you? There aren't any other stand alone strut/shock options but for the B6s as far as I am aware. I guess you could get a set of custom sleeves made to fit over a set of Koni front struts...

Your spring rates are near stock, or at least not significnatly more (like 30%+). The B6s will be fine, generally 20% increase in dampening over stock. They work well with stock springs, as well as typical aftermarket sport/lowering springs.

Well, I am interested to hear their thoughts. The AC springs are linear rate and not progressive which makes a difference and there might be options they have that are not easily available in the US.

Doesn't hurt to have an engineer to engineer chat!

[Shock96]

Originally Posted by GRANTLDN

I can't believe the debate over a set of shocks and springs.

I have run cheap coilovers on a e36 in the past with trimmed bump stops and no helper springs and they are fine until you hit a harsh pot hole - but lets be honest no suspension will ever feel brilliant.

People are getting way to aggressive and uptight over suspension. More so earlier on in the thread.

I'm getting springs and changing bushes first and trimming the bump stops - if I feel I need struts after wards I will take that avenue at a later date.

Trial and error. if your suspension was that important by the time you spend £200 on springs and £600 on shocks you may as well have bought coilovers anyway. But that's life. Get over it.

Sorry Grant, but I completely disagree. Brilliant suspensions can be accomplished and have been all the time. It does depend on the platform.

The more support for a platform, the better sorted it will be. There are a bunch of ways to setup a brilliant 911, but probably not as many (if any) for a Saturn.

Frankly, I would take a well designed shock/spring combo from a company like Bilstein than a cheap coil over from a no name, no nothing company.

Personally, I don't have a mint to play with so I can't try a bunch of combo's to come up with the best solution. I rely on what others have done and the available parts. It is hard to build a great suspension when the parts aren't there.

I guess I would have to say you haven't driven a properly setup car. That would change your mind quick.

[GrantE83]

Originally Posted by Shock96

Sorry Grant, but I completely disagree. Brilliant suspensions can be accomplished and have been all the time. It does depend on the platform.

The more support for a platform, the better sorted it will be. There are a bunch of ways to setup a brilliant 911, but probably not as many (if any) for a Saturn.

Frankly, I would take a well designed shock/spring combo from a company like Bilstein than a cheap coil over from a no name, no nothing company.

Personally, I don't have a mint to play with so I can't try a bunch of combo's to come up with the best solution. I rely on what others have done and the available parts. It is hard to build a great suspension when the parts aren't there.

I guess I would have to say you haven't driven a properly setup car. That would change your mind quick.

No No, you got me wrong.

I'm talking in general, for a cheap coilover and set up how they should be rather how instructed by a piece of paper, they was fine to drive on. But they wasn't for track it was just my daily 36.

I don't recommend them by any means. But they drove fine, they was not uncomfortable just a bit bouncy at times

How many people on here are tracking their X1's. I know there are a few. But if I was tracking I would be buying coilovers rather than sitting on a forum arguing over shocks / springs and worrying about bumpstops.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by GRANTLDN

How many people on here are tracking their X1's. I know there are a few. But if I was tracking I would be buying coilovers rather than sitting on a forum arguing over shocks / springs and worrying about bumpstops.

What are you talking about? Even if you buy coilovers, you still have to worry about bumpstops, as well as spring rates/lengths/etc. That's all still applicable. You do know that in the rear, the shock is identical don't you? The only difference is an adjustable spring perch. Only the front of the car technically gets a coilover strut, and that still needs bumpstops. These conversations are perhaps even more relevant with a car like the X1, where any coilovers are really just E90 gear retrofitted to the car. Guys with KW coilovers on their X1, for example, experience similar problems with insufficient stroke/bottoming out. Things need to be worked out to see what works and what doesn't.

Beyond that...how about if you're not tracking the car with any regularity, but just want to lower the car/improve its handling? Or if you don't want coilovers, because its all E90 stuff that comes with the above-issues?

Any discussion of such involves topics like having adequate/appropriate suspension travel/dampening/etc. That includes conversations (even heated ones which we've since moved on from) about bumpstops, shock/strut options, spring rates, etc.

Beyond all of that, you must be kidding me. Your suspension, including your springs (with BMW's bumpstops being the equivalent of a helper spring), shocks and struts is one of THE most important aspects of a car, from a dynamic standpoint.

You think THAT'S silly to talk about?

You spend the majority of your time on here commenting on what? Wheel fitment? Instagram picks?

This is one of the few threads where technically meaningful things are being discussed amongst the small group of enthusiasts owning these cars.

You'd prefer a forum full of threads about the damn parcel shelf fitment or windshield streaks?

[0w40X1]

But windshield streaking is so easy to fix.

[noLimits Enterprises]

There is a gap in between the parcel shelf and rear seat of my X1, FWIW.

It is a good point indeed that coilovers are not a surefire solution. Even with my JRZ it took some trial and error to get a setup that was as perfect as it is. And it wasn't cheap, unfortunately.

[GrantE83]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

What are you talking about? Even if you buy coilovers, you still have to worry about bumpstops, as well as spring rates/lengths/etc. That's all still applicable. You do know that in the rear, the shock is identical don't you? The only difference is an adjustable spring perch. Only the front of the car technically gets a coilover strut, and that still needs bumpstops. These conversations are perhaps even more relevant with a car like the X1, where any coilovers are really just E90 gear retrofitted to the car. Guys with KW coilovers on their X1, for example, experience similar problems with insufficient stroke/bottoming out. Things need to be worked out to see what works and what doesn't.

Beyond that...how about if you're not tracking the car with any regularity, but just want to lower the car/improve its handling? Or if you don't want coilovers, because its all E90 stuff that comes with the above-issues?

Any discussion of such involves topics like having adequate/appropriate suspension travel/dampening/etc. That includes conversations (even heated ones which we've since moved on from) about bumpstops, shock/strut options, spring rates, etc.

Beyond all of that, you must be kidding me. Your suspension, including your springs (with BMW's bumpstops being the equivalent of a helper spring), shocks and struts is one of THE most important aspects of a car, from a dynamic standpoint.

You think THAT'S silly to talk about?

You spend the majority of your time on here commenting on what? Wheel fitment? Instagram picks?

This is one of the few threads where technically meaningful things are being discussed amongst the small group of enthusiasts owning these cars.

You'd prefer a forum full of threads about the damn parcel shelf fitment or windshield streaks?

This post says it all.

Just because i commented on those posts doesn't mean thats what I want it to be full off them.

I came here looking for a bit of feedback about h&r springs and seen 8 pages of bickering about bottoming out.

I do as I please and learn a long the way just like to try and get a bit of a heads up before hand.

And as for improving the handling of my x1, if i was that concerned about the performance side of things I sure as hell wouldnt be in a 2 litre diesel x1 2wd looking at springs after coming from a 4wd r32.

Get back in your man cave and stop getting so agitated

[GrantE83]

Originally Posted by noLimits Enterprises

There is a gap in between the parcel shelf and rear seat of my X1, FWIW.

It is a good point indeed that coilovers are not a surefire solution. Even with my JRZ it took some trial and error to get a setup that was as perfect as it is. And it wasn't cheap, unfortunately.

Yes but the point is you had coilovers. Not shocks and springs.

Handling was important and you went in the right direction and perfected the set up which is great.