XBimmers X1   XBimmers X1
  XBimmers X1

Go Back   XBimmers | BMW X1 Forum > BMW X1 Forums > General BMW X1 (E84) Forum

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-05-2013, 10:50 AM   #1
Chrakaknox
Private
United_States
4
Rep
71
Posts

Drives: X1 35i M-sport
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

n20 or n55 decision

How much "slower" would a BMS stage 1 n20 28i be than a stock n55 35i?
I'm thinking it would be very close?
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 11:08 AM   #2
annoyingmouse
Enlisted Member
0
Rep
41
Posts

Drives: bmw x1 xdrive28i
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Corpus Christi, TX

iTrader: (0)

I'd guess very close. To be honest, I don't feel that stock n20 is hurting for torque, so with tuning it would be a rocket. The n20 is also a good bit lighter.
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 12:02 PM   #3
edx1
Second Lieutenant
16
Rep
206
Posts

Drives: X1 xDrive35i
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wasatch front

iTrader: (0)

It's fairly close for peak hp and torque but the volume under the curve is still better throughout the entire rpm range on the N55. Many people have also commented that the N20 is pretty maxed while the N55 has far more headroom to expand reliably. There are some reports of people (not on an X1 though) getting over 400hp and torque on the N55, though 330-360 hp/torque is pretty easy to get and still maintain reliability.

If you are looking for performance don't forget to consider other performance aspects such as brakes, transmission and wheels. IMO I found the 35i far worth the heavier engine and 2% weight balance difference that come with the 35i.
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 12:23 PM   #4
Teemo Panda
*Bimmerpost Plasti Dip Guru*
Teemo Panda's Avatar
United_States
81
Rep
1,174
Posts

Drives: E53, E46-M3, E70, F25-X3
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: New Jersey (NJ)

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2013 BMW X3  [5.66]
If you want power, just go for the N55 which will save you alot of future HEADACHES
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 03:09 PM   #5
Chrakaknox
Private
United_States
4
Rep
71
Posts

Drives: X1 35i M-sport
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

thanks for the feedback, my current 335 xi lease is up in 3 months and I need to order my '14 X1 soon. I was hoping that the lighter weight and 8sp tranny would make a big difference towards approaching the 35i performance wise....
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 03:10 PM   #6
Chrakaknox
Private
United_States
4
Rep
71
Posts

Drives: X1 35i M-sport
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

not to mention, the approx. $4k savings I would realize on a 28i could be put towards some nice light weight wheels, tune, and some other little goodies....
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 03:48 PM   #7
edx1
Second Lieutenant
16
Rep
206
Posts

Drives: X1 xDrive35i
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wasatch front

iTrader: (0)

The engines are really not that different in weight, I think around 60lbs but I couldn't find the answer in a quick google search.

The 35i may weigh 175lbs more than the 28i but those curb weights are not fair for comparing. In the 35i you get bigger brakes, sunroof, powered seats, and other optional features included in that weight that are not part of the 28i's standard curb weight. The whole engine weight difference pretty much is pointless if you're lb counting and still adding luxury options.

If you drive both the 35i and 28i in depth you'll realize the two are very different in engine response and a slight difference handling. If you are not running autocross or are considering staggered tires then the engine weight is very a minor point. I originally was happy with the performance of the 28i but the cost difference for the options I wanted made the two models very close so I test drove the 35i and I realized I would quickly regret not getting the 35i. IMO there is a huge difference between the two in the way they drive and simply boosting the 28i will not give you the same response as a 35i.

Honestly no X1 will ever match a 335xi so you will probably be deciding if lower performance vs even lower performance and saving a little money is what you want.
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 04:00 PM   #8
edx1
Second Lieutenant
16
Rep
206
Posts

Drives: X1 xDrive35i
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wasatch front

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrakaknox View Post
not to mention, the approx. $4k savings I would realize on a 28i could be put towards some nice light weight wheels, tune, and some other little goodies....
Cost difference between the two, based on desired options is actually as low as $500.

Are you going to be tracking the car? First thing I would do recommend a different car. Second is spend money on suspension and tires. The X1 suspension is very soft so at minimum I'd look into the m-sport for you but it's not a big difference and based on my laps on the ring and 1800 miles in Europe (I haven't gotten the car back to the US yet to run on tracks I have a baseline for) in the X1 I'd really question it being anywhere good enough that engine weight, lighter weight wheels (the X1 wheels really aren't that bad) would be anywhere near the top of the list of my mods for increasing track times. Goodies are a fast way to change your class in racing and make it hard to compete when there are more serious flaws with key handling attributes. Anti roll bars, tires, then suspension would be at the top of my list as those IMO would make the biggest difference in reducing times, regardless if it's a 28i or 35i, as this is the biggest flaw in the X1. Straight line performance and braking I'd take the 35i with a staggered setup without question.

Last edited by edx1; 06-05-2013 at 04:09 PM..
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 04:25 PM   #9
Grovsnus
Flight Lieutenant ≛
No_Country
18
Rep
918
Posts

Drives: Le Mans blue X1 35i
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: CT

iTrader: (0)

To be honest, a 20d is probably more than sporty enough for most people, and a 28i is close to overkill.
Yet, when I fire up my 35i and hear the straight six, it puts a smile on my face. Every day.
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2013, 09:39 PM   #10
Chrakaknox
Private
United_States
4
Rep
71
Posts

Drives: X1 35i M-sport
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

thanks, I'm scheduled to drive both at my local dealership this upcoming weekend...
Appreciate 0
      06-09-2013, 12:35 PM   #11
Chrakaknox
Private
United_States
4
Rep
71
Posts

Drives: X1 35i M-sport
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

Ordered a '14 35i X1 M sport line - no other options, I'm not into the "cushy/luxury" stuff - got it for right around $500 over invoice - almost exactly $40k. 36 mo. lease - $2,500 total out of pocket to cover taxes, 1st payment, bank fee, etc. $450 per month. 6 weeks to wait now - Valencia Orange/ black interior.. 355M staggered wheels
Appreciate 0
      06-09-2013, 01:36 PM   #12
NotChuckYeager
Analog Field Applications
NotChuckYeager's Avatar
United_States
0
Rep
6
Posts

Drives: 2014 X1 x35i MSport, B44
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Probably on the 91 fwy CA, USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrakaknox View Post
Ordered a '14 35i X1 M sport line - no other options, I'm not into the "cushy/luxury" stuff - got it for right around $500 over invoice - almost exactly $40k. 36 mo. lease - $2,500 total out of pocket to cover taxes, 1st payment, bank fee, etc. $450 per month. 6 weeks to wait now - Valencia Orange/ black interior.. 355M staggered wheels
You got pretty much my exact build. After driving both models and looking at options the 35i was almost a no-brainer. I also did not get the idrive option (thought same as you) and I do miss it for superior phone/music integration but the power and performance make me forget about it pretty quick. And the SOUND - as Grovsnus mentions - is wonderful. Who needs a radio when you have THAT. I think you'll be VERY happy with your decision.
The wait is the worst part!
Appreciate 0
      06-09-2013, 01:48 PM   #13
eric9610
Private First Class
9
Rep
153
Posts

Drives: 2020 Telsa Model YLR
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Newport Coast

iTrader: (0)

The 28I is a good motor but does not come close to the 35i motor. I originally ordered a 28i Msport and changed my mind the day i went to pick it up. The sound and available power in the 35i are unmatched and the smile it puts on your face every time you drive the care made me change my mind.
__________________
2021 MYLR (c), 2016 MB E350 (c),2018 MB E300 (r), 2019 AMG GT63s 4D (r),2018 MB E63S (r), 2018 911T (r), 2014 X5M (r), 2013 X1 35i (r),2011 M3 (r), 2010 328i (r), 2008 M3 (r),2005 330ci (r), 2004 Lotus Elise (r), 2004 X3 (r),2002 330ci (r), 2002 Hummer (r), 2002 MB G500(r), 2000 Z8 (r), 2000 323cic (r)
Appreciate 0
      06-09-2013, 08:16 PM   #14
Chrakaknox
Private
United_States
4
Rep
71
Posts

Drives: X1 35i M-sport
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

The wait is going to kill me... I'm already on the BMS website looking to feed the "mod bug".... I'm thinking air intake/ chargepipe/ JB4 stage 2 should be plenty = approx. 400ft lb of torque? Does anyone have these mods already?
Appreciate 0
      06-09-2013, 11:06 PM   #15
wantm135i
Lieutenant
wantm135i's Avatar
United_States
43
Rep
463
Posts

Drives: x1 35i m sport
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: va

iTrader: (0)

same here chark iam ording my 2014 x1 35i msport almost striped just rims and sound 40,450. thats the best i could find. can wait to mod. please post all your up dates iam following paradox he has done a lot of the ground work for our rides
Appreciate 0
      06-09-2013, 11:13 PM   #16
edx1
Second Lieutenant
16
Rep
206
Posts

Drives: X1 xDrive35i
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wasatch front

iTrader: (0)

No one has reported about those mods, CIWS (he's on another forum) has a few mods to his 35 though. One big question is the ZF 6HP transmission might not be able to handle much more torque reliably. There are 3 places BMW states (Manual has one type listed and parts websites have two others) that say the X1 xDrive35i uses either the ZF 6HP19, 6HP21 or 6HP19tu. I haven't dived too deep to figure out which one for sure, but in short, it looks like the 35 transmission may be be designed to only handle 300ft/lb or 335ft/lb.
Appreciate 0
      06-10-2013, 11:57 AM   #17
eric9610
Private First Class
9
Rep
153
Posts

Drives: 2020 Telsa Model YLR
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Newport Coast

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by edx1 View Post
it looks like the 35 transmission may be be designed to only handle 300ft/lb or 335ft/lb.

That is quite possibly the most misinformation i have ever read. The same transmission that is in the 35i is also in the 335d which puts out 425tq (a bit more than the 335tq you claim), the 6spd has no problems handling high tq loads. If the 335d from the factory can handle 425tq it is surly capable of handling up to 600tq.
__________________
2021 MYLR (c), 2016 MB E350 (c),2018 MB E300 (r), 2019 AMG GT63s 4D (r),2018 MB E63S (r), 2018 911T (r), 2014 X5M (r), 2013 X1 35i (r),2011 M3 (r), 2010 328i (r), 2008 M3 (r),2005 330ci (r), 2004 Lotus Elise (r), 2004 X3 (r),2002 330ci (r), 2002 Hummer (r), 2002 MB G500(r), 2000 Z8 (r), 2000 323cic (r)
Appreciate 0
      06-10-2013, 01:12 PM   #18
Chrakaknox
Private
United_States
4
Rep
71
Posts

Drives: X1 35i M-sport
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eric9610 View Post
That is quite possibly the most misinformation i have ever read. The same transmission that is in the 35i is also in the 335d which puts out 425tq (a bit more than the 335tq you claim), the 6spd has no problems handling high tq loads. If the 335d from the factory can handle 425tq it is surly capable of handling up to 600tq.
OK, good. I've even read that the more conservative Dinan tune(s) put the 35i well over the 335 tq number mentioned in that earlier post and they are associated/connected with BMW...
Appreciate 0
      06-10-2013, 01:30 PM   #19
Red Bread
Major General
United_States
4462
Rep
9,160
Posts

Drives: Smog machines
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Austin, TX

iTrader: (0)

There is some recent speculation that the 8s auto in the F30 is not up to significant torque increases, but as already stated, the 6HP has seen much higher torque numbers than a simple reflash is going to provide.
Appreciate 0
      06-10-2013, 03:38 PM   #20
edx1
Second Lieutenant
16
Rep
206
Posts

Drives: X1 xDrive35i
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wasatch front

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eric9610 View Post
That is quite possibly the most misinformation i have ever read. The same transmission that is in the 35i is also in the 335d which puts out 425tq (a bit more than the 335tq you claim), the 6spd has no problems handling high tq loads. If the 335d from the factory can handle 425tq it is surly capable of handling up to 600tq.
I'm curious where you have read the x1 xDrive35i uses the same transmission as the 335d. Can you support this with documentation? Please do before accusing someone of posting misinformation.

According to owners here on bimmerfest, the 335d uses the ZF 6HP26 transmission which is similar to the ZF 6HP19TU, 6HP19Z and 6HP21 however the difference is primarily in the plates and as a consequence a reduction in the amount of torque each transmission can handle. The ZF 6HP26 can handle 443ftlb while the ZF 6HP21 is designed to handle 332ft-lb according to ZF here: http://apps01.zf.com/zf.productDataB...n_EN_2006s.pdf

Now the manual for the X1 reports the transmission as the ZF 6HP19TU which is to be an upgraded and second generation of the 295ft-lb max ZF 6HP19.

People have reported that on other BMW models that were listed as a ZF 6HP19TU the actual transmissions in the car had the embossing of 6HP21 on them. I haven't dug that deep into my X1 engine bay to verify nor has anyone else reported they have checked that I've seen, but as it stands right now the ZF 6HP21 is the most likely transmission in the x1 xDrive35i but there's a big * in saying this. The TU is suppose to stand for Technical Update and the term 6HP19Z has also been used to denote this improvement. It might be that BMW uses these two terms to denote something internally but we do know and I'll repeat, that the ZF 6HP21 was found in other BMW models where these two terms were used in documentation, just like we see in the X1 documentation.

The max torque reported in documentation by ZF for a 6HP21 is 450nm or 331.9 ft lbs, plain and simple.

There was speculation at one point that a transmission labelled ZF 6HP19TU could handle somewhere between that 450nm and the 600nm (443ft lbs) that the ZF 6HP26 can handle, as I gave in a range in my earlier post, but I have found no documentation or solid information anywhere what a ZF 6HP19TU transmission can handle.

There is also the question of what if an difference there between a true 6HP21 that handles 332ft lbs and the "6HP19TU in documentation yet the actual transmission in the car says 6HP21". I have a hard time believing there are 2 6HP21's with different torque ratings that go by the same part number... Thus I'm skeptical a transmission called 6HP19TU in documentation would be listed as being handle any more than 332ft lbs.

All this has been talked about before, googling 6hp19tu will give you plenty to read up on, including a discussion here on bimmerfest last year: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=627364 post #14 in particular documentation here http://www.***********.com/showthrea...ence-Documents

But if you have time, please dig into your engine bay and let us know what part number is on your x1 xDrive35i... Is it the 6HP26 that's used in the 335d like you're saying or a different part number?
Appreciate 0
      06-10-2013, 05:54 PM   #21
eric9610
Private First Class
9
Rep
153
Posts

Drives: 2020 Telsa Model YLR
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Newport Coast

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by edx1 View Post
I'm curious where you have read the x1 xDrive35i uses the same transmission as the 335d. Can you support this with documentation? Please do before accusing someone of posting misinformation.

According to owners here on bimmerfest, the 335d uses the ZF 6HP26 transmission which is similar to the ZF 6HP19TU, 6HP19Z and 6HP21 however the difference is primarily in the plates and as a consequence a reduction in the amount of torque each transmission can handle. The ZF 6HP26 can handle 443ftlb while the ZF 6HP21 is designed to handle 332ft-lb according to ZF here: http://apps01.zf.com/zf.productDataB...n_EN_2006s.pdf

Now the manual for the X1 reports the transmission as the ZF 6HP19TU which is to be an upgraded and second generation of the 295ft-lb max ZF 6HP19.

People have reported that on other BMW models that were listed as a ZF 6HP19TU the actual transmissions in the car had the embossing of 6HP21 on them. I haven't dug that deep into my X1 engine bay to verify nor has anyone else reported they have checked that I've seen, but as it stands right now the ZF 6HP21 is the most likely transmission in the x1 xDrive35i but there's a big * in saying this. The TU is suppose to stand for Technical Update and the term 6HP19Z has also been used to denote this improvement. It might be that BMW uses these two terms to denote something internally but we do know and I'll repeat, that the ZF 6HP21 was found in other BMW models where these two terms were used in documentation, just like we see in the X1 documentation.

The max torque reported in documentation by ZF for a 6HP21 is 450nm or 331.9 ft lbs, plain and simple.

There was speculation at one point that a transmission labelled ZF 6HP19TU could handle somewhere between that 450nm and the 600nm (443ft lbs) that the ZF 6HP26 can handle, as I gave in a range in my earlier post, but I have found no documentation or solid information anywhere what a ZF 6HP19TU transmission can handle.

There is also the question of what if an difference there between a true 6HP21 that handles 332ft lbs and the "6HP19TU in documentation yet the actual transmission in the car says 6HP21". I have a hard time believing there are 2 6HP21's with different torque ratings that go by the same part number... Thus I'm skeptical a transmission called 6HP19TU in documentation would be listed as being handle any more than 332ft lbs.

All this has been talked about before, googling 6hp19tu will give you plenty to read up on, including a discussion here on bimmerfest last year: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=627364 post #14 in particular documentation here http://www.***********.com/showthrea...ence-Documents

But if you have time, please dig into your engine bay and let us know what part number is on your x1 xDrive35i... Is it the 6HP26 that's used in the 335d like you're saying or a different part number?
The facts are there is a Dinan tune available that puts out over 400lbft of tq and is covered by warranty is all i need to know. I don't think anyone here knows for sure what the true tq load our transmissions can handle but the fact a tuner who provides warranty coverage matching BMW factory says all i need to know. No engineer or manufacturer would ever design something so close to a failure threshold since there are so many variables. I like to call this common sense.
__________________
2021 MYLR (c), 2016 MB E350 (c),2018 MB E300 (r), 2019 AMG GT63s 4D (r),2018 MB E63S (r), 2018 911T (r), 2014 X5M (r), 2013 X1 35i (r),2011 M3 (r), 2010 328i (r), 2008 M3 (r),2005 330ci (r), 2004 Lotus Elise (r), 2004 X3 (r),2002 330ci (r), 2002 Hummer (r), 2002 MB G500(r), 2000 Z8 (r), 2000 323cic (r)
Appreciate 0
      06-11-2013, 12:41 AM   #22
edx1
Second Lieutenant
16
Rep
206
Posts

Drives: X1 xDrive35i
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wasatch front

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eric9610 View Post
The facts are there is a Dinan tune available that puts out over 400lbft of tq and is covered by warranty is all i need to know. I don't think anyone here knows for sure what the true tq load our transmissions can handle but the fact a tuner who provides warranty coverage matching BMW factory says all i need to know. No engineer or manufacturer would ever design something so close to a failure threshold since there are so many variables. I like to call this common sense.
BEGIN OPINION

I mostly agree there is little to worry about with the Dinan tune. I would personally do it and not worry about problems but then again I wouldn't complain either if in 7 years my transmission plates go out early and I have a $2k bill either, pay to play or don't play. But for those who are budget concerned I think it's best to make it clear what information is out there that we know or have indication of so that they know what the engineered specs are and let everyone make their own choices. Blind trust is a dangerous path.

For fun I'll troll a little though It's late and I'm too bored, please don't take offence but just let me throw a few curve balls at some comments just to give you a baseline for my viewpoints on some things as it might help you just realize my method of thinking, primarily that I'm a crazy nut.

Your comment "No engineer or manufacturer would ever design something so close to a failure threshold since there are so many variables. I like to call this common sense.". I call it a smart business plan for future revenue, it's very profitable, especially when you have a captive audience. BMW also might have gone to 15k oil changes under their free maintenance plan and "lifetime fluids" so they do not need to be changed while under the warranty, but I for one don't believe these two things are wise. As for Dinan warranty, they'll probably cover any damage you can prove, potentially on your dime, but you might want to avoid doing anything but their mod if you want to be guaranteed they'll stand behind the warranty. I personally see the $2k price tag as part of paying their insurance policy for your car. Most cars will likely be fine with the tune but there's a chance the tune may expose a weakness in a particular engine or drivetrain that might not have been an issue without it or as quickly. There are also many people who question how realistic it is to see 401ft lbs and with loss in various components, most people still think the tune is around 380 ft lbs crank to get a loss around 340ft lbs at the wheels, not 401 at the wheels and about 440 ft lbs at the crank.

But like I said, pay to play. I personally think there's enough room to have fun with the xDrive35i with some mods but I'd always have a few thousand keep handy if something does happen down the road.

END OPINION
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:45 AM.




xbimmers
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST