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      06-20-2015, 08:23 PM   #1
Dmitry83
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H&R vs Eibach Pro-Kit: let the tournament begin!

Hi, all!

Seems no one here yet tried the Eibach Pro-Kit on X1, whereas H&R -30mm is quite common upgrade.
Having read the E90 forum and found very few happy H&R users, with others reporting a harsh ride,
Founding no direct comparisons for X1, I've made a radical decision in the name of Science- I've just got and installed H&R kit (here the labor costs around $120 including alignment, so more or less affordable for the experiment), and my Eibach Pro-Kit is on the way to arrive in about two weeks.
Meanwhile the H&R will be able to settle and show itself on 1000km of different roads or so.
My car is a 2013 28i Sport Line with 225/45/18 Michelin PSS non-Runflats.

The steering.
Todays 60km way shown H&R springs to have a very similar stiff feel as my KW V1 on former E81 120i had.
Cornering, braking and acceleration is day and night compared to stock- everything became unexpectedly flat, the response is truly instant
Now the comfort.
These springs can be definitely used with stock non-M shocks, i.e. no wobbling or control loosing, disbalance etc. The ride comfort on lower speeds is almost unchanged, but on over 60km/h big bumps cause a pronounced yet well damped punches- 100% coilover memories.
Some time and mileage is definitely needed for the spring metal to show how it brakes in- probably it can become softer, but it may become lower and even stiffer. Will continue my experiment during next couple of weeks.

Thus, as Eibach is well known for a great comfort to control and response mprovement ratio- I would rather sacrifice some percentage of intant steering reactions to eliminate stiffness.

Oh, yes- the overall drop on H&R is very reasonable- the car keeps around 150mm ground clearence, at the same time the driving feel to me is way better for the road feel.

PS
Sorry for the dirty car- this week the nature's provides carwash daily.



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      06-21-2015, 02:08 AM   #2
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Thank you for the feedback and the future reviews :-)

I understand form you comment that you have the standard non-M sport supensions, is that right? I had those on my car and found the rear axle badly controlled, especially the rebound. I'd have been afraid to make it worse with stiffer springs, so what you report is interesting.

I went for the KW V1 on my side, and they dramaticaly changed the car, without changing much the comfort. In fact I find the car even more comfortable since body movements are much better controlled, especially on big bumps.

Impatient to read your review about the Eibach kit.
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      06-21-2015, 05:28 AM   #3
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Hi and thanks for the intetest!)

Yes, I have standard non-M shocks since no S226A option in the list of equipment. Though the stock Sport Line spring are obviously like 10mm lower than those on xLine comparing two cars standing near.

Hard to say about the rear axle control which you described, since the whole stock car was quite floaty on the acceleration, braking and turns, behaving itself like a motorboat, resulting frightening driving commands delay. All that felt the springs are too soft and long. But when the initial softness is taken by body roll- the car is nicely controlled (i.e. long turn steering corrections, steering under braking etc). So to my point of view, there were no harsh hits or jumps and vertical body swinging (as it was with my E81 120i with M-Sport suspension). Thus the shocks itself make nice job, absorbing hits without crashing to the body, and with no disgusting rear end vertical dancing after passing the high bridge joints or something of that kind.
Now I would consider front H&R springs to be even stiffer than the rears, giving a fantastic steering responce, but at the price of stiff punches.
Well, let's give them several days to break-in.

PS
NTTY, I see the Powerflex rear subframe bushings inserts in your signature. Had you those installed before or after the KW V1? What is your opinion on that mod?
On E81 the rear was floaty, while probably due to overally softer suspension on E84 I did not feel this as pronounced.
Thanks.
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      06-21-2015, 08:09 AM   #4
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I had the KW and Powerflex installed at the same time and only 5 days ago. I know how to test if the impact of Powerflex inserts is positive on the rear subframe, but did not have time to perform this very specific test yet.
I'll let you know asap.

What you describe is correct, stock suspensions do the job well, and same as you, stock E82 suspensions were not as good. So, on one side I'm suprised the H&R brings that much without negative impact, but on the other side, when I see the KW V1 not fundamentaly stiffer than stock suspensions, I can understand the benefits you described.
So basically, your combo might bring you half way between stock suspensions and the KW V1, for a fraction of the price, which is very good.
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      06-21-2015, 08:50 AM   #5
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Thanks a lot in advance- the KW V1 detailed experience as well as any other mods are extremely interesting!

By the way, as per the signature, you are using the Powerflex Black subframe bushings- I could not have found any for the E84 in their catalogue. Have you adapted the E90 ones? (I thought you did so acccording to some M3 front bushings used- which ones are those?)

Thanks.

PS
My previous car, where I used Powerflex, was not E82, but E81- a 3-door hatch (here sitting on KW V1):
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      06-21-2015, 10:23 AM   #6
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Indeed, I used the inserts of the E9x and E8x for which the site claims they are not compatble with the E84. That partially true. For the two bushings located on the front side of the rear subframe, they are the same so the inserts fit without problem. For the two on the rear side, we had to adapt them (cutting) since those two bushings are not totally identical. I suspect they are harder than on the E9x as they have less space in them.

I also went for the two top mounting bushings of the rear shock absorbers. Those two improve the work of the rear suspensions.

Is that your car lowered with the springs in the first post? If yes, it looks like a nice lowering. Mine went two low at the moment, but we tried the lowest setup allowed by Swiss road regulations. I'll adjust the height before the final wheels alignement.



I got you on the E81, I was just confirming your impression, since I had the same on my E82 ;-)
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      06-21-2015, 10:59 AM   #7
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Yes, it went 30-35mm lower, whereas the drop of yours looks 50mm or so. From my experience lifting yours 15-20mm will make the dampers a little softer as well due to less internal compression which is great for comfort with very little steering agility lost.

I suppose Eibach will be something similar to H&R in terms of height, as both are claimed -30mm F/R axle.

Sorry if I was unpolite regarding E81-82- my English is not native, so sometimes I can have slight difficulties in delicate cases.)
Meanwhile the 120i shown is on KW in highest position in the rear (the nuts are screwed out so much, so only 3 or 4 coils are on the bolt (around 1cm). The front still has way to go- I've been lifting the front up for 15-20mm for Winter, and there was still several coils to go.
Little strange actually- like the suspension is the same for E81-87 and for E82-88, which probably have different points where the KW supporting bolt and purple adjustment nut are mounted.
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      06-21-2015, 05:22 PM   #8
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Don't worry, you were not unpolite ;-)

Yes, almos all KW references are the same for all one series. Depending on the initial weight of the car, it might go lower on some.

I had Bilstein PSS before the V3 on the 135, really bad dampening and badly designed. At the highest setup in front, it was already too low.
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      06-24-2015, 09:06 AM   #9
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Now 4 days of driving on H&R and about 300km on different roads passed.
Since day 2 I cannot see any further lowering. The springs still continue to become softer and from yesterday I feel they had finally settled in flexibility.

The steering, road feel and the body control improvement is amaizing like I've switched from E84 to E90.

The car feels tight and solid, the steering responce is no more blade-sharp as it was when the springs had just been installed and were rock-hard. Now it is something like changing Goodyear runflat to Michelin PSS non-runflat- razor sharpness and unpredictability to transparency and control.

Again I notice how well the stock shocks do its job- no wobbling, no hard strikes, perfect small imperfections smoothing with great road feel.

But I still feel the H&R springs are equivalent to KW, i.e. to be used with quite strong-absorbing shocks like Koni Sport- on the big road holes and high bumps stock shocks obviously lack, I would say, 15-20% of damping reserve, causing the wheel to fire to the hole too fast and get close to the dampers on the bumps passing. However I cannot find any marks on the springs, showing them to lock.

Thus the Eibach Pro-Kit, being expected to be softer, seem to be a better match to the very comfortable and high-quality stock shocks, I would prefer to keep.
So passionately awaiting for the Eibachs in about 2 weeks to arrive.
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      06-24-2015, 09:22 AM   #10
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Which part number did you order for the Eibachs? I can't find anything for the X1 on their site.
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      06-24-2015, 09:28 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cooombs View Post
Which part number did you order for the Eibachs? I can't find anything for the X1 on their site.
E10-20-020-02-22 for xDrive
E10-20-020-01-22 for sDrive

Written to Koni as well yesterday- they still do not offer any shocks for E84 , but no reply yet.
Still in doubts about Bilstein monotubes for future, as I've always used dual-tubes- KW V1, Koni Sport.
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      06-24-2015, 11:38 AM   #12
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Used to be a Koni guy...now I'm a Bilstein convert. Loved their HDs on my 135 and M3.

Not sure if the HDs for the X1 will be as nice, they have them labeled with a "C" for comfort...not sure if they've dialed them back a lot.
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      06-24-2015, 11:48 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
Used to be a Koni guy...now I'm a Bilstein convert. Loved their HDs on my 135 and M3.

Not sure if the HDs for the X1 will be as nice, they have them labeled with a "C" for comfort...not sure if they've dialed them back a lot.
Interesting!
Could you please kindly describe why did you move from Koni to Bilstein?
What are the impressions?
There are Bilstein B6 (yellow) for X1. Same are used in the B12 Kit (with Eibach springs).
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      06-24-2015, 04:08 PM   #14
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I got rid of my Bilstein PSS (B14) on my 135. They were very bad in all aspects. Unfortunately, my bad experience is not unique with those PSS, several friends had similar issues on other cars. I even had the Bilstein redone by an authorized specialist form Bilstein (to modify the dampening based on the weight of my car, etc...), and even then I was 2sec faster per lap with the KW V3. Anyway, the Bilstein finally had several quality issues, including noise and rapid wear at a point never seen before on other shock absorbers. I now have been a very happy customer of KW for years, and tested a lot of them (V1, v2, v3, CS, and now the new AST which are of the same dampening quality but at a cheaper price).

Note that my comments apply only to B14 and B16, I don't know the others.

Cheers
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      06-24-2015, 04:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry83 View Post

Again I notice how well the stock shocks do its job- no wobbling, no hard strikes, perfect small imperfections smoothing with great road feel.

But I still feel the H&R springs are equivalent to KW, i.e. to be used with quite strong-absorbing shocks like Koni Sport- on the big road holes and high bumps stock shocks obviously lack, I would say, 15-20% of damping reserve, causing the wheel to fire to the hole too fast and get close to the dampers on the bumps passing. However I cannot find any marks on the springs, showing them to lock.
Very interesting feedback. Thank you!
Not a surprise that stock shock aborbers can't always control the H&R springs.
Cheers.
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      06-24-2015, 06:10 PM   #16
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During these two evenings the car had been put under the hard drive with deep and long high-speed cornerings, thus the springs had suffered the static loads for several seconds.
And this at cost of 20 litres of petrol and several microns of rubber brought an amazing results. The springs had reached a deeper flexibility, and at last there are no more hardness on the holes and bumps, which I previously considered to be a stock shocks weakness. And it had actually been the stubborn spring coils obviously, which had to get a proper prolonged pressure, and the city speeds with short hits from bumps, holes and tram railways was not enough load for the settling.
The body had also lowered by another 0,5cm or so front and rear.
Regarding the balance- I still feel the front is a little too stiff for this light 2,0 engine, ehereas the rear is perfect with no throwing the body up at passing the bridge joints and, together with the shocks, keeping the rear wheels nicely planted at the imperfect surface cornering.
So, as the Eibachs had been shipped from Germany today, I have some 10-14 days for H&R kick@ss break-in and hopefully new discovers to share.
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      06-24-2015, 06:24 PM   #17
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Thanks for the reports Dmitry. I'm considering going with just the H&Rs.
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      06-24-2015, 06:52 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ja Gio View Post
Thanks for the reports Dmitry. I'm considering going with just the H&Rs.
Great it can be useful for someone!
Can you wait for about 3 weeks to let me get the Eibachs and give them a try?

PS
A guy from the bmwclub Russia is waiting for the Bilstein B12 Kit to arrive in about 15 days as well. Will keep you all updated on his impressions (his set up is 28i + BMS Stage 1 + downpipe, full stock suspension)- should be interesting.
I have read another post from local car community on the same kit installed to an M-Sport with very positive feedback. The owner sais it goes like a boat now on hardest road damages. Will try to ask him more as well.

PPS
And there is one wild Marrakesh Brown X1 with 28i with BMS Stage 2 + downpipe + bigger intercooler, pushing out some 320 hp, also running on H&R with stock shocks. This car fires 0-100 km/h in 4,6 seconds. This example was my final decision to try H&R alone.
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      06-24-2015, 07:11 PM   #19
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I'm in no rush - enjoying your posts.
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      06-25-2015, 12:12 AM   #20
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Hi Dmitry,

So that means the stock shock absorbers can handle fast travel speed of the suspensions. But, and as no surprise, they struggle more in low speed of the suspensions (hitting a bump at low vehicule speed), but it is already the case with stock springs, so what is the difference in this area between stock and H&R springs?

In addition, would you say that body roll is better controlled? It is not the case with stock suspensions, as soon as you try driving fast. And that is again an erea involving low speed travel of the shock absorbers.

Last comment, you have the much lighter and amating Michelin PSS tyres, and that already facilitates the job of the suspensions and improves greatly the car. So not everyone might get the full benefits you describe if they stay with the RFT tyres.
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      06-25-2015, 07:55 AM   #21
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I would say there was a feeling of struggling to damp the big bumps and holes, but it was pronounced on both low and high speed.
Now, as the springs softened, it work with the stock shocks perfectly.
Even the most difficult- middle to high speed surface waves, several in a row- causes the body to raise a little on each, but never loose control or something, how it happens if the shocks are worn or too weak.

I think it is time to take a highway test once again to compare the current condition with what is was with the springs freshly installed.

Ragarding the body roll- I consider the springs and the sway bars to be the first role to stand against that. Shocks can resist it if they either rock-hard, or having the special valve to change the dampening- like KW has.
So with the stock long and soft springs, if driving actively, the body was in the constant movement: back, forward, sides, diagonally etc.
With H&R, call it "neutral", position of the body is planted and it does not wobble down, neither is jumps up due to enough dampening after the spring is compressed and tries to push the body up.
I would say, the stock shocks are quite strong in rebound, while enough supple in compression. As a result with moderate stiffness springs we get good control in cornering, while enough comfort at road inperfections.

Of course, strengthening the compression of the shocks would provide more road feel and agility, stronger cornering grip, and better roll resist, but at the same time we gain more tire noise and microvibration, and loose some comfort at bumps.

Would be interesting to add the stiffer sway bar to the current setup and compare to the same one with stronger compression shocks and stock sway bar.
But It is still difficult for me do define, should it be front, rear or both sways not to cause the understeering.

On the Michelin PSS tires you are absolutely right- it is much lighter than the stock Goodyear Efficient Grip Runflat. But at the same time I did not have any dampening problems with the heavier 225/50/17 Michelin X-Ice North 2 studded winter tires and damn-heavy 317 style 17" wheels.
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      06-25-2015, 10:47 AM   #22
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Ok, thank you, that really sounds like a huge improvement. I can only compare stock suspensions vs KW V1, and of course that is a massive difference, and surprisingly the comfort did not change, which is really a great surprise.

Anyway, yes stiffening the low speed rebound (as you can do on KW V2 or V3) will lower body roll, as well as stiffening low speed compression. In corner, or a bend, one side of the car goes down and the other side goes up. With stiffer springs, it is true one side will go down less, but the other might raise a bit more because of the springs' stiffness behind less loaded and therefore pushing up a bit more. Again, I guess this is compensated by the general lowering of the car, at least that's what I understood through your good results.

That's really an interesting thread. Thank you for being so descriptive and taking time to share all of this.

Cheers.
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