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      02-18-2011, 01:06 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyQuest View Post
Thanks for posting. Interesting comment about the sound generator.

He also seems to think the Z4 30i will indeed become a 28i, though doesn't confirm this comes from BMW. However, he's probably right, which means it looks like 28i will become the standard name for all the N20B20-powered vehicles in the BMW product range.
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      02-18-2011, 02:13 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magbarn View Post
It's not power, it's the NVH of the motor. I still haven't met a 4 banger that I've liked. By BMW putting a 4 banger which essentially has the same harmonics as a cheap ass Civic, it's a downgrade. I6 will always be a smoother engine. The saying goes "you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig"
Rubbish, that's a sweeping generalisation. I recently test drove a Merc E-Class Coupe 250CGI (4cyl 1.8turbo) that's smoother than my sisters 325i (She lives in the USA so that makes it the I6 3.0l).
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      02-18-2011, 02:22 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mario486 View Post
With all due respect this is a stupid post.

Are you referring to the fact that the Turbo 4 has a small displacement? Could you please elaborate on what the weight of the car has to do with the displacement?
The first point was a general statement on the stigma of 4 cylinder engines associated to economy cars or inferior Japanese imports late 20th century. Most people don't want to pay premium for product with perceived inferiority. As much as this may sound ignorant or illogical, car purchase is most often emotional decision.

Second point is that BMW is powering a SUV with only 230hp that weights 3300 unladen, which is lethargic even compared against a lowly Honda v6 Accord. (Remember BMW owners wants to buy a superior product than those owned by proletarians) In addition, SUV is suppose to carry and haul. 4 adults in a X1 means 230hp is used to push near 4000lbs of weight, hardly exhilarating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel
Your comment makes no sense, however, since this engine will offer performance that is as good or better than the naturally aspirated inline 6 it replaces. Also, there is no Civic or Focus with anwhere near 250hp, nor with a turbocharged engine in the US, although there will be the Focus ST Ecoboost in a year's time.
Don't matter. You are the smart one but think how many fanboys on BMW forums point to 4 cylinders as sore point of Asian imports. Recall how many disparaging comment on Audi's 2.0T when it first came out. It's all about perception for 90% of luxury car buyer. Tell me the truth, you think there's more BMW owner like you than owners who bought it for the brand or the 6-8 cylinder under the hood.


Don't get me wrong, this is a technologically advance engine. May even win BMW few awards but try to beat that 4 cylinder engine image is HARD.
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      02-18-2011, 02:37 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
The first point was a general statement on the stigma of 4 cylinder engines associated to economy cars or inferior Japanese imports late 20th century. Most people don't want to pay premium for product with perceived inferiority. As much as this may sound ignorant or illogical, car purchase is most often emotional decision.
Please note the huge popularity of the Audi A4 which is currently available only with a 4 cylinder engine (at least in the US, and I believe worldwide also). It used to be available with a V6 as well, but so few people chose the V6, despite it offering about 45hp more than the 2.0T, that they got rid of it.

Quote:
Second point is that BMW is powering a SUV with only 230hp that weights 3300 unladen, which is lethargic even compared against a lowly Honda v6 Accord.
It's 245hp actually (perhaps only 240hp in the US). Also, this hardly the lowest power output available in the X1. There are plenty of lower output engines available since launch. It's true that this will be the base (and only) engine in the US, at least for now, but so what? Compared to the other SUVs in this category, they are right in the game. For example, the Acura RDX I mentioned earlier makes 240hp from a 2.3L turbo I4, and it weighs nearly 4000 lbs. The LR2 makes only 230hp from a 3.2L N/A I6. The new Evoque will have a 2L turbo with similar power. Plenty of other similarly-sized SUVs are similarly powered, anywhere from under 200hp up to 275hp or so. I think the BMW will be one of the top performers of all of them.
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      02-18-2011, 02:42 PM   #49
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Don't matter... Tell me the truth, you think there's more BMW owner like you than owners who bought it for the brand or the 6-8 cylinder under the hood.
I think that there are both enough BMW's owners who buy the car for the badge and don't care about what's under the hood, and enough who care about the engine and will love the turbo 4 cylinder to make the X1 a huge seller in the US. Additionally, I suspect that the rest of the N20 powered vehicles in the BMW lineup with sell as good or better than their N52 predecessors.
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      02-18-2011, 02:48 PM   #50
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Perhaps the biggest irony here is that there is even an argument over which is the more “manly” engine to put in a BMW cute ute that may only be available with a slush box. Although, I really want this car (if it’s available with a manual), it will only have one or two hairs on its chest regardless of what’s under the hood. The blown 4 is a perfectly suited engine for this car IMHO.
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      02-18-2011, 03:41 PM   #51
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Somebody at the Toronto Auto Show from BMW said that it was 241 HP. He also said that this was the second most fuel efficient car in the fleet (after the 335d).

My ol' 325i had about 185HP and I was happy with it at the time. I think that the worst thing that people can do is drive a bigger-engined car. You will then never be happy with anything smaller.

The new X1 will be perfect for my wife.
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      02-18-2011, 03:59 PM   #52
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The turbo 4 in the X1 will hit 6.1 second 0-60 with a manual and 6.5 with an automatic. The X3 with the 3.0 hits 6.7 seconds and no manual offered. One major point for ever wanting the turbo 4 is the gas milage. We won't see the EPA ratings for quite some time but I have to believe it will get 21 city and 30 on the highway. My previous 2007 X3 with the 3.0 was rated 17 city and 24 highway but I never got over 22.5 on the highway ever and got about 18 around town. The new X3 with the 3.0 is not much better and in fact is rated less than the turbo 6.

As for BMW not making a smooth 4 cylinder turbo I'm am very impressed with my Clubman S. That little 1.6 liter turbo 4 is smooth as hell and will flat run all day.
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      02-18-2011, 05:04 PM   #53
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Acoustics — intelligent solutions for more efficiency, comfort and dynamics.

here's an article "official BMW Group" that shows BMW interest in testing acoustic systems to mimic desirable engine note "artificially"
the system being tested now include diesel engines on a 6 series and a 4 cylinders turbo engine.
the idea is to allow the user to adjust the engine note inside the cabin to his taste...what a strange idea ha!
have a look, sounds interesting
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      02-19-2011, 02:21 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Please note the huge popularity of the Audi A4 which is currently available only with a 4 cylinder engine (at least in the US, and I believe worldwide also). It used to be available with a V6 as well, but so few people chose the V6, despite it offering about 45hp more than the 2.0T, that they got rid of it.
Audi's 2.0T success is an excellent point. What happened with them is a shift in buyers demographics. Your regular luxury car buyer, male 35-50 years old, is phasing out of A4 and going into other brand or segments.

A4 is also increasingly purchased by younger and female buyers who are stepping in from the exodus of typical male buyer, who don't want a 4 cylinder. Sure A4 2.0T is a hit but not so much with its historic customer base. I am male, in my 30s, so when I said I don't think people will want a 4 cylinder engine I am speaking from my point generation.

http://www.motorwayamerica.com/edito...t-most-changes

Quote:
Audi captures most young buyers

Nearly one-fourth (23.8 percent) of Audi customers — the largest percentage among the four premium brands — were in the 16-35 year-old age range. That was higher than the percentage of young buyers for the industry, which remained stable at slightly more than 21 percent in the first 4 months of both years
Quote:
In addition to capturing the highest percentage of young buyers among these four premium brands, Audi also increased its female buyer base this year — to 34.2 percent from 33.2 percent a year ago.
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      02-19-2011, 11:10 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky13 View Post
As for BMW not making a smooth 4 cylinder turbo I'm am very impressed with my Clubman S. That little 1.6 liter turbo 4 is smooth as hell and will flat run all day.

That's precisely why I'm worried. Had a 2011 MCS a few weekends ago as a loaner, and while it's smooth for a 4 banger and had decent kick (it did have some noticeable lag BTW and yes I tried DS/manual mode with sport on), it's not a good sounding motor or anywhere near as smooth as a N52. The 328i loaner I had with my last oil change had a superior motor.
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      02-19-2011, 12:03 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magbarn View Post
It's not power, it's the NVH of the motor. I still haven't met a 4 banger that I've liked. By BMW putting a 4 banger which essentially has the same harmonics as a cheap ass Civic, it's a downgrade. I6 will always be a smoother engine. The saying goes "you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig"
Have you met the Subaru turbo flat fours? Those sound great, even stock. I'm a huge I6 fanboy as well, and sure it'll be different but BMW fours have as far as the 2002 (I haven't personally heard any older than that) sounded pretty stout and decent with a nice thrum/hum to them, and pretty smooth too, especially with climbing revs so don't knock them too hard before you get a chance to try them. Granted, I'll be chasing the I6s wherever they remain but I'm sure the fours will acquit themselves very well. They'll still be made by BMW for BMWs.
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      02-19-2011, 05:49 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magbarn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Your comment makes no sense, however, since this engine will offer performance that is as good or better than the naturally aspirated inline 6 it replaces. Also, there is no Civic or Focus with anwhere near 250hp, nor with a turbocharged engine in the US, although there will be the Focus ST Ecoboost in a year's time.
It's not power, it's the NVH of the motor. I still haven't met a 4 banger that I've liked. By BMW putting a 4 banger which essentially has the same harmonics as a cheap ass Civic, it's a downgrade. I6 will always be a smoother engine. The saying goes "you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig"
Well with your nose so out of joint about 4 cylinders, does this mean that you haven't driven an s14, a Mitsubishi Evo?, scooby STI or legacy gt, or the Acura rsx, integra, or the Honda s2000? And of course there is the Audi 1.8 and the Mazda miata.

By the way, the harmonics of a four cylinder are only bad when the displacement gets up higher than 2.25 liters, which is why most of the motors mentioned above are under that size.
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      02-19-2011, 09:08 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Well with your nose so out of joint about 4 cylinders, does this mean that you haven't driven an s14, a Mitsubishi Evo?, scooby STI or legacy gt, or the Acura rsx, integra, or the Honda s2000? And of course there is the Audi 1.8 and the Mazda miata.

By the way, the harmonics of a four cylinder are only bad when the displacement gets up higher than 2.25 liters, which is why most of the motors mentioned above are under that size.
Evo and scooby 4 bangers are good, but have noticeable lag. An ex-roomie of mine had a 2003 S2000, great car when kept at full boil, but the motor felt as gutless as my 2007 R18 civic around town and the four banger drones annoying as hell at freeway speeds. Even the 2011 MCS i had as a loaner sounded like crap. Many of the engines on your list are more powerful than the n52, but none are smoother or refined. I honestly wouldn't mind the N20 so much if BMW left the choice of a NA I6 in addition to the N20. My wife will be looking for a car in about 2-3 years and the LCI 528i was on our short list. If the only choice is a 4 banger '528i' or a 535i we'll probably look elsewhere.
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      02-19-2011, 10:29 PM   #59
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The lag in the MCS wasn't due to the turbo it is due to the automatic. Ask any Mini owner and it's a known fact that the delay is a transmission issue with the automatic. I had a bad delay in my X3 automatic transmission (different transmission and different motor) but it was not related to the engine. There's no turbo lag in a manual 1.6 turbo s engine in the Mini's.
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      02-20-2011, 04:57 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky13 View Post
The lag in the MCS wasn't due to the turbo it is due to the automatic. Ask any Mini owner and it's a known fact that the delay is a transmission issue with the automatic. I had a bad delay in my X3 automatic transmission (different transmission and different motor) but it was not related to the engine. There's no turbo lag in a manual 1.6 turbo s engine in the Mini's.
IMHO you lose 50% of the fun in a mini with the auto box. I love my mini, one of the nicest cars I have ever owned from a drivers point of view. It's a real blast, a road legal go-kart
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      02-20-2011, 05:49 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
The first point was a general statement on the stigma of 4 cylinder engines associated to economy cars or inferior Japanese imports late 20th century. Most people don't want to pay premium for product with perceived inferiority. As much as this may sound ignorant or illogical, car purchase is most often emotional decision.

Second point is that BMW is powering a SUV with only 230hp that weights 3300 unladen, which is lethargic even compared against a lowly Honda v6 Accord. (Remember BMW owners wants to buy a superior product than those owned by proletarians) In addition, SUV is suppose to carry and haul. 4 adults in a X1 means 230hp is used to push near 4000lbs of weight, hardly exhilarating.



Don't matter. You are the smart one but think how many fanboys on BMW forums point to 4 cylinders as sore point of Asian imports. Recall how many disparaging comment on Audi's 2.0T when it first came out. It's all about perception for 90% of luxury car buyer. Tell me the truth, you think there's more BMW owner like you than owners who bought it for the brand or the 6-8 cylinder under the hood.


Don't get me wrong, this is a technologically advance engine. May even win BMW few awards but try to beat that 4 cylinder engine image is HARD.
I really should not rise to the bait...but what the hell.

Again Sir, I assume you are making a sweeping statement that there is a stigma against 4cyl in the USA . It certainly is not the case elswhere in the world. In fact Europe (and elsewhere) has generally moved away from from 6/8-cyl petrol cars in the small to medium segment. There are many reasons for this but will only name a few:

1. They are expensive to run (our fuel is now $13 per gallon)
2. They are dirty, ie high emissions on which many countries now tax drivers
3. They very often attract luxury taxes
4. They offer no advantage what so ever over the more modern 4cyl's.

Now the car manufacturers know this and as a result the development of large capacity 6/8 cyl engines has all but been stopped. Of course there are exceptions like Ferrari, Porsche etc but even they are eyeing smaller capacity alternatives. If the American consumer thinks these high performance 4cyl's are "girly" or "not smooth enough" or "not big enough" they are in for a wee surprise. All manufacturers (except some well publicised USA dinosaurs) are going this way. Although I would hazard a guess Sir that your views are not entirely representative of the majority of drivers in NA either.
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      02-20-2011, 07:18 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mario486 View Post
If the American consumer thinks these high performance 4cyl's are "girly" or "not smooth enough" or "not big enough" they are in for a wee surprise. All manufacturers (except some well publicised USA dinosaurs) are going this way. Although I would hazard a guess Sir that your views are not entirely representative of the majority of drivers in NA either.
Well, this NA consumer has yet to hear a inline-4 that sounds as good as a inline-6, to me that's a big deal.
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      02-20-2011, 08:20 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mario486 View Post
All manufacturers (except some well publicised USA dinosaurs) are going this way. Although I would hazard a guess Sir that your views are not entirely representative of the majority of drivers in NA either.
Of course and I would pose similar argument that your view are not entirely representative of NA drivers as well. Fact is we don't pay 6-9 dollars per liter and until we do, most red blooded car enthusiast would pay for largest displacement we can afford. As I already mentioned my opinion originates from my personal taste and point of view, 4 cylinder engine may be successful but not with the traditional "luxury" car buyer.

I don't think heavy, high displacement vehicles are going away. SUV sales are returning from the low, and as SCOTT's comments have indicated X5, X6 are hot, even in emerging markets, and cases can be made for Porsche's Cayenne. In fact the panamera and cayenne have been out selling lower displacement, lower emission caymans.

I am going to make a bold claim: most people don't care for the environment until 1) it hurts their pocket book, 2) acid rain comes down in their backyard. If they do we wouldn't need luxury or gas guzzler tax, or mandatory emission standards.
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      02-21-2011, 02:29 AM   #64
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Oh dear,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
Of course and I would pose similar argument that your view are not entirely representative of NA drivers as well.
Judging by other posts on here I think some of your fellow countrymen would beg to differ. At least I would hope so.

Quote:
Fact is we don't pay 6-9 dollars per liter and until we do...
No, only 3-4 dollars is required to achieve this. It's generally what the rest of the world is paying.


Quote:
, most red blooded car enthusiast would pay for largest displacement we can afford.
What the he'll is a "red-blooded" car enthusiast? And I take it you are again only talking about the NA Market? Oh and by the way I think that most on this forum are car enthusiasts and would take exception to this comment, it smacks of a arrogance that does you no favours. Not one on this X1 forum have a 6cyl X1 that I am aware of.

Quote:
As I already mentioned my opinion originates from my personal taste and point of view, 4 cylinder engine may be successful but not with the traditional "luxury" car buyer.
You say it's your opinion but in the same sentence you then go on to make a statement? Anyway, yet again the average BMW buyer most certainly does not buy a large capacity car as BMW sales figures would attest to. Or are you saying that the average BMW is not a luxury car?

Quote:
I don't think heavy, high displacement vehicles are going away.
Oh yes they are, maybe not in the USA but the move in the rest of the world is towards smaller SUVs, massive sales increases in Tiguans, X1s, RAV etc are proof of this.

Quote:
SUV sales are returning from the low, and as SCOTT's comments have indicated X5, X6 are hot, even in emerging markets, and cases can be made for Porsche's Cayenne. In fact the panamera and cayenne have been out selling lower displacement, lower emission caymans.
This by no means represents the average, they are very much niche vehicles with low sales volumes. And just for interest the boxster and cayman are to get 4cyl engines in the near future. Why, because of demand and changing EU legislation of course.

Quote:
I am going to make a bold claim: most people don't care for the environment until 1) it hurts their pocket book, 2) acid rain comes down in their backyard. If they do we wouldn't need luxury or gas guzzler tax, or mandatory emission standards.
Mmmmm, difficult one. Actually, no, simple. You are wrong.
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      02-21-2011, 09:01 AM   #65
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I'm an American, have owned 13 BMW's none of which have had a V8 and would not take a Tahoe, Ford or Chevy or Ram pick up or SUV if you gave it to me. I'm not interested in a 6.2 liter Chevy engine. I wouldn't buy a BMW with a V8. Totally disagree we want the biggest engine we can get, look at the summer of 2007 when gas went to $4 and you couldn't give away those vehicles. Gas will probably hit $4 this year and keep rising so the day is coming when almost all V8's be will gone. Ford's getting ready to put a 4 cylinder turbo in the Explorer, Chevy is putting one in the Regal and it won't be long before Camaro's and other "sports cars" will get them. I don't want to waste gas, I'm not a tree hugger but when I can drive my turbo 4 Mini Clubman S and get 28-29 mpg in the city I'll take that all day. I would never consider a V8 in a car or SUV, I have the money to buy and drive any car I want and I drive a 335i. Once you get decent gas milage you don't ever want to go back. When I'm done driving my 335i (which could be soon if the HPFP goes out) I will get a 4 cylinder turbo BMW. Times are changing, someday soon gas will be be $4-6 in the US and the entire dynamics will change, people will discover they don't really need having their wife driving around in a Tahoe getting 14 mpg and feeling like your driving a barge.
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      02-21-2011, 09:16 AM   #66
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Quote:
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I am male, in my 30s, so when I said I don't think people will want a 4 cylinder engine I am speaking from my point generation.
I don't think BMW cares who buys the cars, as long as sales goals are met. Also, in your original hypothesis you neither qualified the age/sex issue, nor mentioned you were arguing from that perspective. I can't respond to information I don't have, but even if you'd brought these things up the point is weak at best. I firmly believe that all the 4 cylinder BMW's will be huge successes in the US, and I think if we revist the issue in two years time the facts will bear this out.
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