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      08-11-2015, 09:24 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
Ah, PCA - that explains it. Pick an event. $1000 in cash if you're faster than me in any of your cars. I'll pay for your track day on top of it if you are faster in your X1 with H&Rs.
And here we see it. The end result of every argument you ever get in.

That you're 11 second X1 on R comps can turn a fast lap. Totally relevant to the conversation about suspensions.

Man you're a jackass sometimes.
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      08-11-2015, 09:28 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
And here we see it. The end result of every argument you ever get in.

That you're 11 second X1 on R comps can turn a fast lap. Totally relevant to the conversation about suspensions.

Man you're a jackass sometimes.
Can you explain how the ability of a car to turn a fast lap is not relevant to a properly set up suspension?

Strange words from a supposed PCA instructor. Which chapter do you instruct with and which Porsche do you have?
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      08-11-2015, 09:29 PM   #25
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You're right, the literally tens of thousands of people that run OE replacement Bilstein HDs, which are intended to be run with stock (or close to stock springs), are all morons.

My wife LOVES her HDs w/stock springs on the 135 (which runs about a 1:24 around summit main on 245 RA1s, and something around a 1:30 at NJMP Thunderbolt). Everyone does. Must be too harsh! Because you said so!

Again, don't comment on shocks you've never run before? Sound fair?


What's your technical background again?

Guy who paid someone to make his cute-ute fast and now thinks he can act like a jackass on an internet forum?

Is there a degree for that?
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      08-11-2015, 09:31 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
Can you explain how the ability of a car to turn a fast lap is not relevant to a properly set up suspension?

Strange words from a supposed PCA instructor. Which chapter do you instruct with and which Porsche do you have?
Are you ESL? Did I ever once say your car wasn't properly set up? I have no doubt it is set up extremely well for that matter.

I think you need to re-read the thread again.

Haven't owned a P-car since college. Schattenbaum and RTR.
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      08-11-2015, 09:36 PM   #27
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The fact that you've steered YET ANOTHER thread toward laptimes is typical from you.

Seriously, how many threads have I read from you that end in your betting someone that you can outrun them?

I'm trying to see if anyone has any experience trying to keep my wife's daily driver off the rear bump stops with a suspension that you've never owned, and you're blabbering on and on about your shop built track toy of JRZs.

Grow the hell up.

Yeah, we get it. We've read the threads. We're all impressed with your car.
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      08-11-2015, 09:43 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
The fact that you've steered YET ANOTHER thread toward laptimes is typical from you.

Seriously, how many posts have I read from you that end in your betting someone that you can outrun them?

I'm trying to see if anyone has any experience trying to keep my wife's daily driver off the rear bump stops with a suspension that you've never owned, and you're blabbering on and on about your shop built track toy of JRZs.

Grow the hell up.

Yeah, we get it. We've read the threads. We're all impressed with your car.
Yes, we get it. You wrench your own car. You are a mechanical engineer. You are not a typical X1 owner. Seeing a trend here?

You asked for thoughts in your OP, I gave you mine. When you discounted mine, which are based on more experience than you have on the car, you made some petty remarks.

I would never have brought laptimes up if you didn't imply that me being required to pay a car to wrench my car somehow meant I did not understand suspensions. There is literally no correlation. You threw petty insults twice, so I simply pointed out that just because you wrench your own car, it doesn't mean you understand suspensions either, and it doesn't make you fast around a track. You continually mention that you have tons of experience installing "BMW Suspensions, far more than I do," yet lack any experience whatsoever on this car.

A fast lap time is where the bullshit stops - you can't turn a poor lap time with a poor suspension. Without a validation of a decent lap time, how does anyone know if all of the "tons of BMW suspensions you installed" are any good whatsoever? Any moron can throw springs on a car and claim he installed a suspension.

If you were truly a suspension expert, you would not make a post asking a bunch of BMW X1 owners for their thoughts on whether adding stiffer dampers would prevent springs from bottoming out.

It's a BMW X1 Forum. A BMW X1 FORUM. What can a 10 year Porsche instructor ex mechanical engineer who has installed tons of suspensions and built race cars from scratch POSSIBLY hope to learn about suspensions on a BMW X1 forum?
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      08-11-2015, 09:49 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post

A fast lap time is where the bullshit stops - you can't turn a poor lap time with a poor suspension.
Once again, please point to where I even remotely hinted that your car was not extremely well setup?

Again, are you reading some other thread? That was NEVER even remotely a point of discussion.

My comments regarding my experience were an attempt to get you to stop making posts like you're talking to some newb, telling me to find a shop and read up on how suspension works. Carroll Smith was my college spirit guide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
If you were truly a suspension expert, you would not make a post asking a bunch of BMW X1 owners for their thoughts on whether adding stiffer dampers would prevent springs from bottoming out.
No one claimed to be an expert. Not once. That being said...

Once again, if you don't know that stiffer compression can reduce compression stroke length in transient and high-speed events (i.e. impacts), than you plain and simply don't know what you're talking about. Steady state cornering? Of course not.

Will it be enough? We'll see.

There's nothing at all wrong with starting a thread to try and get some open dialog going between the guys actually running these parts.
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      08-11-2015, 09:53 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
Once again, please point to where I even remotely hinted that your car was not extremely well setup?

Again, are you reading some other thread? That was NEVER even remotely a point of discussion.

My comments regarding my experience were to attempt you to stop making posts like you're talking to some newb, telling me to find a shop and read books.
My question about your lap times was my attempt to verify that I am not talking to some newb. On the internet, everyone is Senna.

You said you have tons of suspension experience, but we all know that's a pretty broad category. Since you can't turn a fast lap without a well set up suspension, if you have laid down some decent times than that lends veracity to your claims of being an expert and "not a typical X1 owner" who has "tons more experience than I do" with BMW suspensions.
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      08-11-2015, 09:55 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post

It's a BMW X1 Forum. A BMW X1 FORUM. What can a 10 year Porsche instructor ex mechanical engineer who has installed tons of suspensions and built race cars from scratch POSSIBLY hope to learn about suspensions on a BMW X1 forum?
Keep dodging the point. Again and again.

You came on here and said coilovers are the only way. Then you've admitted to having never attempted to run the parts we're talking about.

So, no offense...you have absolutely no helpful insight to offer in this thread.

Hoping to learn (and/or be the guinea pig) about the setups at issue. Completely unrelated to your tracksetup.
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      08-11-2015, 09:58 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
My question about your lap times was my attempt to verify that I am not talking to some newb. On the internet, everyone is Senna.

You said you have tons of suspension experience, but we all know that's a pretty broad category. Since you can't turn a fast lap without a well set up suspension, if you have laid down some decent times than that lends veracity to your claims of being an expert and "not a typical X1 owner" who has "tons more experience than I do" with BMW suspensions.
Man you are something else. Some of the most experienced suspension guys have never turned a lap in anything anywhere.


Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
Since you can't turn a fast lap without a well set up suspension
What the hell does that even mean? A fast lap compared to what? A stock car?

If you've been on the track, you'd know that a well-driven stock car can outrun all the money in the world.

Are you drinking?
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      08-11-2015, 10:00 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post

So, no offense...you have absolutely no helpful insight to offer in this thread.
I'm sorry, you are being ridiculous. Nobody in the forum has run the exact setup you are asking about. What's the point in creating a thread if you only want experience with that exact part?

You said this:

Quote:
Do we think the HDs are going to bottom-out like the stock shocks do on the H&Rs over large bumps at high speed?
I said yes, I have ran stiffer shocks than the HDs with soft springs and still bottomed out.

Frankly, that is the closest to your situation that anyone on this entire forum has experienced.

I hope your new dampers fix your problem, I really do. But I have zero faith they will. And I can promise you it will not solve the rear instability.
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      08-11-2015, 10:00 PM   #34
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Edit...that was low...sorry.
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      08-11-2015, 10:04 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
Man you are something else. Some of the most experienced suspension guys have never turned a lap in anything anywhere.
Like who? Must not be the teams from Moton and JRZ that I see at the track in support roles.

Quote:
What the hell does that even mean? A fast lap compared to what? A stock car?
We all know what is a generally quick lap for most cars around a given track.

Quote:
If you've been on the track, you'd know that a well-driven stock car can outrun all the money in the world.
Of course, this is the entire reason it's fun to go to PCA events. But a well-driven, well set-up car will outrun the stock car.
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      08-11-2015, 10:04 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
I said yes, I have ran stiffer shocks than the HDs with soft springs and still bottomed out.
.
You're setup had a fraction of the suspension travel of the one's we're talking about. Nor the same spring rates, nor the same dampening. So again, you have no basis for making this statement beyond VERY broad generalizations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
I hope your new dampers fix your problem, I really do. But I have zero faith they will. And I can promise you it will not solve the rear instability.
I said nothing of instability in the rear end. I said the car was underdamped. A common problem when running a stiff spring without a correspondingly stiffer shock. This is a problem typically solved by stiffening up the dampers.

The bit of rear-end play in all E90 cars is largely (albeit not completely) addressed by subframe bushings, which I installed last week. Not that wifey cared all that much anyway. But they're really a must on all of these cars for anyone caring about this sort of thing.
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      08-11-2015, 10:09 PM   #37
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OK, probably turning in for the night.

If nothing else, we've made this forum more lively than it's ever been.

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      08-11-2015, 10:12 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
I said nothing of instability in the rear end. I said the car was underdamped. A common problem when running a stiff spring without a correspondingly stiffer shock. This is a problem typically solved by stiffening up the dampers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by prematureapex
No one is adding dampeners that are valved for stiffer springs.
???

Quote:
The bit of rear-end play in all E90 cars is largely (albeit not completely) addressed by subframe bushings, which I installed last week. Not that wifey cared all that much anyway. But they're really a must on all of these cars for anyone caring about this sort of thing.
I agree about the usefulness of the subframe bushings, particularly under braking. But it was my impression the instability the other poster mentioned was over highway joints and bumps due to a soft rear spring.

Quote:
OK, probably turning in for the night.

If nothing else, we've made this forum more lively than it's ever been.
Yep, the forum is dying (just like BMW's driving DNA).
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      08-11-2015, 10:25 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
???
Bilstein HDs (for example) are "valved for stock springs", but that doesn't mean they aren't stiffer than stock. They are, in the 10-20% range.

They're not improper for use with stock springs, and in fact, are well-liked by most. It's more a product of BMW's shock tuning going from the best in the business, to straight to hell...likely the result of having to accommodate the runflats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post

I agree about the usefulness of the subframe bushings, particularly under braking. But it was my impression the instability the other poster mentioned was over highway joints and bumps due to a soft rear spring.
Got ya, you were referring to the hop from bottoming on the stops. Yes, with the factory compression damping and the reduced rear travel, the springs aren't stiff enough to adequately control compression reasonably into the stroke of the stops...but it should be getting into them none-the-less (not that the rear shocks aren't already overwhelmed with the new higher rates).

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
Yep, the forum is dying (just like BMW's driving DNA).
Uggg...let's not get started on that. We'd be here all night.

OK, I'm old and I need sleep.

Later man. And keep driving people what I imagine is bat-shit crazy out there at your track days. "FTW is that thing?!"
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      08-11-2015, 10:40 PM   #40
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Final note...and should have been mentioned earlier...

Our stock 135i would constantly bottom out the bump stops in high-speed impacts. A problem noted even by Car and Driver in their review of the car.

It got so bad, it's mushroomed plenty strut towers.

Bilstein HDs are high-pressure monotubes, which add a bit of effective spring rate (hence, a bit taller ride height after most installs). Since installing them two years ago with stock springs, the car is a tank at any speed. Never bottoming out on the highway, etc. A gigantic improvement in that department.

This is a VERY common experience with them, and part of the basis for the reasonable belief that it will benefit in the current situation...possibly in combination with returning the suspension travel to near OE length.

We'll see.
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      08-12-2015, 07:54 AM   #41
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http://www.ridefox.com/fox_tech_cent...ning_Tips.html

Symptoms: Bottoms out, soft throughout travel

  • Cause: Spring rate too low throughout travel or too little compression damping
  • Solution: Use more air pressure or stiffer coils springs; increase compression damping
Any other resource will tell you the same thing. Added compression damping increases the resistance to spring compression, which may ultimately prevent bottom out. If it doesn't cure it, it will certainly help the condition. Couple that with proper length bump stops, and that may very well be all we need.

Bilstein HDs are notorious for lots of compression damping (especially vs. the likes of Konis). It's a reason who some people love them, and some people hate them.
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      08-12-2015, 12:27 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
After throwing on the H&R springs, I've come to the conclusion that stronger shocks/struts are certainly needed.

The only real option are Bilstein HDs. I run them on my 135i (w/stock springs) and love them.

They don't make Bilstein Sports for the X1 (not even special order, like the front HDs are anyway).

Do we think the HDs are going to bottom-out like the stock shocks do on the H&Rs over large bumps at high speed?

Since the H&R springs are "designed" to work with the stock shocks (ha), I'm thinking the HDs may be fine. I'm hoping the added stiffness of the HDs will be able to keep them from crashing on the internal bump stops....but I'm not sure.

I'll be pissed if they are prone to the same bad behavior as the stock shocks are, after dropping $650 on them and waiting 3 months to get the fronts produced/shipped.

Any thoughts? I'll post comments after I get them (first the rears, then both).
Following this thread and others as well, as I'm in the same boat with my X1. Doing some research on Tire Rack and some German websites they don't even show Bilstein HDs, only Bilstein B6 (Tire Rack) or Bilstein B6 Sport (German websites). Both have the same Bilstein part number, so I'm assuming they are the same. For applications the German websites show that they are recommended for stock to 50mm (2 inch) drops, so they should work with the H&Rs. The German websites do call the B6 Sport as being the sporting application, being stiffer than stock. They also show a B4 shock available for the X1, meant for a more stock applications. Interesting thing is that they also show the B6 Sport being regular stock, showing shipping immediately, which differs from what you have found...

Either way, thanks for being the guinea pig on this combo on here, because if it works I'll be following the same path....
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      08-12-2015, 01:02 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fw_fw View Post
Following this thread and others as well, as I'm in the same boat with my X1. Doing some research on Tire Rack and some German websites they don't even show Bilstein HDs, only Bilstein B6 (Tire Rack) or Bilstein B6 Sport (German websites). Both have the same Bilstein part number, so I'm assuming they are the same. For applications the German websites show that they are recommended for stock to 50mm (2 inch) drops, so they should work with the H&Rs. The German websites do call the B6 Sport as being the sporting application, being stiffer than stock. They also show a B4 shock available for the X1, meant for a more stock applications. Interesting thing is that they also show the B6 Sport being regular stock, showing shipping immediately, which differs from what you have found...

Either way, thanks for being the guinea pig on this combo on here, because if it works I'll be following the same path....
http://www.bilstein.com/uploads/tx_t...6_b8_en_35.pdf

Bilstein B6's are in almost all circumstances commonly referred to as "HDs" (besides some rare "C" designations). The B8s are traditionally the "Sports" with the shortened shafts (same body length) to prevent losing the preload on the springs with the suspension in full-droop (a major safety/legal concern).

Once you get over 1.5" of drop or so, you're generally going to be needing the B8s/Sports, which as far as I know, they don't make for the X1 (have you seen them?).

The B6s and the B8s are widely quoted by Bilstein as valved identically. Again, just the shorter shaft to prevent loose springs in droop.
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'02 S54 M3 (500/500 GC/Koni)
'08 N54 135 (JB4, DCI, BMW PS/Bilstein B6s, H&R M3 FSB, Strongflex FCABs)
'14 N55 X1 (JB4, BMS DP, BMS Intake, Alpina TCU reflash, H&R Sports, Bilstein B6s, E93 M3 RSB, Strongflex FCABs, baby seat)
'08 N54 535xi touring (Bilstein B6s, Downpipes, MHD tune, baby seat)

Last edited by PrematureApex; 08-12-2015 at 01:19 PM..
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      08-12-2015, 01:10 PM   #44
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The high compression damping coupled with the slight increase in ride height may very be enough. I think I saw maybe .25" increase in height with HDs on my M3 and 135i. E90 guys have seen closer to .5". While don't necessarily want the car any higher...I'll take it if it means a proper ride.

I'll give that a go before touching the bumpstops to start...then resort to trimming them a bit if that doesn't completely eliminate the issue.
__________________
'02 S54 M3 (500/500 GC/Koni)
'08 N54 135 (JB4, DCI, BMW PS/Bilstein B6s, H&R M3 FSB, Strongflex FCABs)
'14 N55 X1 (JB4, BMS DP, BMS Intake, Alpina TCU reflash, H&R Sports, Bilstein B6s, E93 M3 RSB, Strongflex FCABs, baby seat)
'08 N54 535xi touring (Bilstein B6s, Downpipes, MHD tune, baby seat)
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