Winter Tyres

[mario486]

Hi Everyone,

There has been a lot of discussion on Winter Tyres for the X1 on the various threads. I would think that now would be a good time to start a dedicated thread on this subject, particularly in light of the severe winter we are experiencing in Western Europe at the moment.

The UK in particular is very new to the Winter Tyre market but my dealer tells me that their sales of M&S specific tyres are up 3000% in the last two months.

[mario486]

Ok, I started this thread so I better kick it off. And I will do this with a question. What will it take for my X1 to get stuck in winter?

Let me explain.

On Saturday I had BMW fit my X1 with a set of Dunlop Winter Sport 3D tyres, size 225/50/17 non-RFs. These are rated as Mud & Snow tyres and are on steel rims with removable plastic wheel covers. I say the covers are removable because I also wanted to fit snow chains to the rear if the conditions were bad enough. In my experience alloys or plastic covers take a real pounding from chains, steel rims I am not so worried about. Anyway, co-incidentally on Sunday we had about 10" (25cm) of fresh snow on top of earlier hard packed snow and ice. Ideal time for some testing.

My exact tyres/wheel/trim combination



My very amateurish testing over the last few days have entailed:

1. Stop and pull away up hill on a 1:4 gradient.

Road conditions : Hard packed snow/ice base with about 2" of fresh snow

Result : Easy pull away in 1st. No wheel spin what so ever. Did this 4 times.

2. Hard acceleration on level road.

Road Condition : Hard packed snow/ice with 5" of fresh snow. Also on a different road with about 7" of snow/slush mix.

Result : No wheel spin, normal acceleration.

3. Emergency stop from 30mph.

Road Conditions : Hard packed snow/ice with 5" of fresh snow.

Result : Braking distance about the same as on a wet road. ABS kicked in for about 1/2 sec before dead stop.

4. Traction in deep snow.

Road Conditions : Shop parking lot actually. Found a level section that had about 12" (30cm) of lying snow.

Result : Pulled away easily in 1st. I wanted to try this as a the X1 only has a clearance of about 20cm. The bottom of the car was scraping along the snow but it rode over it quite easily. I suspect that the wheels compacted it down to about 10cm or so.

So, so far I have not been able to get the X1 stuck in what is fast becoming the worst winter we have had for over 100 years. This still leaves the question as to what would stop the X1?

Well, I think I may have problems if the following conditions exist:

a. Snow depth greater that 30cm would start a "plough effect" in front of the car. This I suspect would stop it.

b. I have not tested the X1 on hard, clear ice. If this is on a steep gradient it probably would cause the car to slip/spin. At this point I would probably be looking at fitting chains as well.

c. Of course the biggest danger is other vehicles on the road. Any winter tyre or 4x4 ability is not going to be of much use on a jammed motorway behind a jack-knifed lorry.

d. UK diesel is good to around -15C in winter. Below this the danger of freezing diesel (waxing) would also stop the X1. To reduce the risk keep your fuel tank topped up. An empty tank will freeze up sooner than a full tank.

Suffice to say I am more than impressed with my X1 XDrive/winter tyre combination and think that I should now be able to cope with anything that our winter may throw at us.

[DUH CAR]

4a. With deep snow you will start to become an inefficient snowplow. This results in the car being lifted up with loss of contact with the road. Decreased traction results in wheel spinning and no forward motion.

I used to have a Miata that did this in very deep snow when the road had not been plowed.

[Taylan]

Hi,

My ibeX1 is fitted with Pirelli Sottozeros R/Fs.

Last weekend, I went to a ski resort 280 kms away from Istanbul.
255 kms on highway
25 kms climbing the mountain on snow

Highway:
- It took around 1,5 hours to complete the highway session (average speed around 160 km/h)... Sottozeros are neither noisier nor harder than their all-season sisters (factory fitted all season Pirellis are already hard enough
- The average air temperature through the highway was around -3 celcius... The handling and braking distance was extremely good.

Snow climbing (25 kms long - altitude increase from 800 to 3200 meters)
- first half - hard packed snow/ıce
- second half - hard packed snow/ıce with very few fresh snow

Within the first couple of kilometers I was not sure about hard acceleration and braking. I have made some tests on safe straights. Then I started to increase my speed.

I can easily say that the road conditions were difficult but the X1 made it very easy. I passsed several SUVs and other vehicles on glass ice. Only a Sub. Forester could follow me.

Driving and handling was as it was on dry roads. Electronics did not interfere even once.

X1 was parked in front of the hotel for 3 days. Ave. temperature day:-5-10 night:-15-20

As expected, after 3 days it was covered with ice and snow and the snow around it was over 20 cms. It started with the first kick. I pushed my right foot and it pulled away gently from the parking lot withou any hesitation.

Sorry that no pictures.

I will climb again two weks later. I will most probably be colder and more fun.
I will take and post some pics then.

Taylan

[mario486]

Originally Posted by Taylan

Hi,

My ibeX1 is fitted with Pirelli Sottozeros R/Fs.

Last weekend, I went to a ski resort 280 kms away from Istanbul.
255 kms on highway
25 kms climbing the mountain on snow

Highway:
- It took around 1,5 hours to complete the highway session (average speed around 160 km/h)... Sottozeros are neither noisier nor harder than their all-season sisters (factory fitted all season Pirellis are already hard enough
- The average air temperature through the highway was around -3 celcius... The handling and braking distance was extremely good.

Snow climbing (25 kms long - altitude increase from 800 to 3200 meters)
- first half - hard packed snow/ıce
- second half - hard packed snow/ıce with very few fresh snow

Within the first couple of kilometers I was not sure about hard acceleration and braking. I have made some tests on safe straights. Then I started to increase my speed.

I can easily say that the road conditions were difficult but the X1 made it very easy. I passsed several SUVs and other vehicles on glass ice. Only a Sub. Forester could follow me.

Driving and handling was as it was on dry roads. Electronics did not interfere even once.

X1 was parked in front of the hotel for 3 days. Ave. temperature day:-5-10 night:-15-20

As expected, after 3 days it was covered with ice and snow and the snow around it was over 20 cms. It started with the first kick. I pushed my right foot and it pulled away gently from the parking lot withou any hesitation.

Sorry that no pictures.

I will climb again two weks later. I will most probably be colder and more fun.
I will take and post some pics then.

Taylan

Brilliant Thanks for the feedback. My experience as well.

My Dunlops are non-RF's so the ride is slightly softer but the car handles the same.

[BigDave]

As you know from previous threads I have only had my X1 for 5 days. I was very worried about what tyres would be supplied with car. Silly me! I should have known they would have been summer tyres and guess what? Today I got stuck - in a cemetary. I was making a left turn, driver side wheels were on hard packed snow whilst passeger side was in about 4" of snow. car would not move. I tried first and then reverse gear several times. All wheels were spinning. Even tried switching off traction control. No joy. Luckily some passers by gave me a push. Very embarrasing for a so called 4 wheel drive car. My RAV4 gave me no trouble when fitted with all season tyres. On arrival home I reversed in to my drive which is on a slope. The back wheels went over some ice and the car went sideways. Made it on the second attempt. I am going to try complaining to BMW but do not think I will get anywhere.Car should be fitted with all season tyres from new so that it is fit for purpose. Does anyone else agree?

[BigDave]

Me again guys. Just found this video. Very interesting.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/b...-winter-tyres/

[Gatekeeper]

"An empty tank will freeze up sooner than a full tank."

I beg to differ:

Diesel gas as sold retail is mixed with additive, and will reach very low temperatures before "freezing", which is in fact molecules breaking up and rending the fuel totally inefficient.

It has nothing to do with a tank full or not.

However, keeping a tank full is yet very important, although for a different reason:

A tank too empty in freezing temperatures will allow condensation to build up inside, and when the car is running and / or outside temperature raises, condensation becomes water which runs thru the fuel system.
Not good at all.
Modern gas filters should be able to prevent any significant amount of water to reach the injector rail.
However if even a tiny quantity of water makes it to the intake system of such a high-pressure Diesel engine as we have in our X1 Bimmers, you can kiss the engine goodbye. And manufacturer warranty will not apply.

I know, I'm , but I think it was worth the short

[mario486]

Originally Posted by BigDave

As you know from previous threads I have only had my X1 for 5 days. I was very worried about what tyres would be supplied with car. Silly me! I should have known they would have been summer tyres and guess what? Today I got stuck - in a cemetary. I was making a left turn, driver side wheels were on hard packed snow whilst passeger side was in about 4" of snow. car would not move. I tried first and then reverse gear several times. All wheels were spinning. Even tried switching off traction control. No joy. Luckily some passers by gave me a push. Very embarrasing for a so called 4 wheel drive car. My RAV4 gave me no trouble when fitted with all season tyres. On arrival home I reversed in to my drive which is on a slope. The back wheels went over some ice and the car went sideways. Made it on the second attempt. I am going to try complaining to BMW but do not think I will get anywhere.Car should be fitted with all season tyres from new so that it is fit for purpose. Does anyone else agree?

Hi Dave,

Sorry you had such a bad experience! I think that there are two factors at play here:

Firstly the tyres - No arguments from me, I agree. I cannot see why any car in Scotland at least needs summer tyres. Our warm season is at best about 3 months of the year, is rarely hot, very and often wet, and from November to March the air temps rarely get above 10C. We should be fitting all season tyres to all vehicles as standard. You say that your RAV4 had all seasons, did you fit them yourself or were they standard? Reason I ask is that I have yet to see any manufacturer fit all seasons as standard in the UK. I may be wrong with the likes of Land Rover, Range Rover etc but none of the sedans come with them. Interestingly I did ask my BMW dealer about this a while back and his response was that most drivers are more interested in getting a large number of miles out of their tyres than actual on road performance. You also only have to look at the rubbish tyres that people put on their cars (yes I know its a generalisation) with most going for the cheapest they can get. The likes of Michelins are seen as "too expensive" and Pirellis as "too soft", regardless of any safety benefits that these tyres may bring.

My winter driving experiences are somewhat limited to Scotland and a few months I have spent in Canada in arctic conditions. However I am now convinced that any vehicle driving in Scotland should have winter tyres fitted for the three to four cold months of the year. I believe this should be law, like it is on the continent.

Secondly the X1's 4x4 ability - This is a bit more contentious. I have never driven a RAV4 but I have driven Toyota HiLux's and Landcruisers extensively in Africa. If the RAV4 has half the offroad ability of the latter its probably a lot better than the X1 offroad. Note I say offroad as the two Toyotas, as well as the Nissan SUV's and Land Rovers I have driven are bloody awful on the motorways and around town. I can also tell you that the X1's handling and fuel consumption beats the two Toyotas (and the others I have driven) hands down. Point I am trying to make is that the X1 is a crossover and not a heavy duty off-roader. Very simply its lack of a low range, diff-lock and its relatively lower ground clearance will cause it to run out of steam when faced with any serious stuff off the tarmac.

I am going to add another point to this and am probably going to get a bit of flack for it too ... but what the hell... The X1 is cheap for what it is. This may not be true for every country but it certainly is here. Maybe we should start another thread with this as subject line.

[Gatekeeper]

Yep, agreed 100%.

Tires are the issue, period. Even on a 4X4 tires ARE the key.

I told the story elsewhere, but just for the sake of the argument, 2 Winter tires (only 2 yes !) installed last week on my SDrive 20d were just night and day compared to the Summer tires.

So far, DTC + 2 Winter Nokian got me out of everything. Deep snow, ice, stop on icy upward slope, you name it. I was just stopping on ice uphill on purpose to show off...

[mario486]

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

"An empty tank will freeze up sooner than a full tank."

I beg to differ:

Diesel gas as sold retail is mixed with additive, and will reach very low temperatures before "freezing", which is in fact molecules breaking up and rending the fuel totally inefficient.

It has nothing to do with a tank full or not.

However, keeping a tank full is yet very important, although for a different reason:

A tank too empty in freezing temperatures will allow condensation to build up inside, and when the car is running and / or outside temperature raises, condensation becomes water which runs thru the fuel system.
Not good at all.
Modern gas filters should be able to prevent any significant amount of water to reach the injector rail.
However if even a tiny quantity of water makes it to the intake system of such a high-pressure Diesel engine as we have in our X1 Bimmers, you can kiss the engine goodbye. And manufacturer warranty will not apply.

I know, I'm , but I think it was worth the short

And I beg to differ you

This is for the UK, al la Shell Oil Company, I cannot speak for other countries.

Summer diesel will start waxing at around -5C

From around mid-October to mid-March in the UK an additive is added that lowers the waxing point to about -15C. Temperatures below this may cause diesel to freeze (wax) and the vehicles fuel system to be starved. Also known as the Cold Filter Plugging Point (CFPP).

Arctic grade diesel standards are not available in the UK.

Anyway I do not want to belabour the point but there are other alternatives, most notably fuel pre-heaters which I came across on industrial/commercial vehicles in Canada. It would be interesting to find out if these are available for BMW's but I don't know.

I agree on your point that an empty tank would be more prone to condensation and therefore a build up of water ice in the tank. However, on my point about full or empty tank. Its a simple fact that a vehicles full fuel tank will act as a better heat sink than an empty one. Do a simple experiment. Fill one container with 100ml water, fill another exact same container with 1l of water at exactly the same temp. Place both in the freezer and see which one freezes first. I stand by that point

[Gatekeeper]

Mario, you are saying exactly what I'm saying : Diesel freezing has nothing to do with whether your tank is full or not (but with the amount of additive it had been mixed with.)

Now to address your concern about block heaters as I think this is what you are referring to...
It won't do anything to Diesel fuel low-temperature capability. Block heaters are resistances which you "plug" in a regular outlet, and which keep the oil pan and cooling system "warm".
Meaning that when you start the engine, oil is fluid and the engine suffer much less. But if your Diesel fuel has already crystallized in your fuel system because it can't take temperatures below -12c, the block heater is... useless !!

What I used to do in Canada is use after-market additive, and I would pour a flask of it every other fill up (And a block heater too of course...)

On my 1978 Mercedes W123 300CD it went just fine.
However I would discuss with your BMW dealer before doing the same on a sophisticated high-pressure, common rail powerplant such as the 2 Liter in your X1. If it voids the warranty, you are none the wiser.

[tompak23d]

In Sweden (I think that goes for whole Scandinavia right now) there is also lots of snow. We have the opporunity to use winter tires with pikes. We have the problem with "black ice". Thats when the road gets a layer of ice on the tarmac road = very slippery. This can only be handeled by "real winter tires" with pikes, such as Nokian HAKKA 7. I think it´s a real pitty that you guys in other countries can not ude winter tires with pikes. I believe that even in the USA and Canada you can not use tires with pikes. Right or wrong???

This morning we had -32 Celsius. A little bit of a problem for my X1 to get a real good heat inside the car...

[Gatekeeper]

Dunno for the US, each state seems to have its own regs, but definitely out in Canada.

Two reasons explained the decision to ban them :

1. Spikes do real damage to the roads.

2. A car with spiked tires gets very difficult to handle on dry and wet pavement, and our "southern" Winters even if they leave us with heavy snow and a few ice storms, still are predominantly "mild" compared to Sandinavia.

[mario486]

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

Now to address your concern about block heaters as I think this is what you are referring to...
It won't do anything to Diesel fuel low-temperature capability. Block heaters are resistances which you "plug" in a regular outlet, and which keep the oil pan and cooling system "warm".
Meaning that when you start the engine, oil is fluid and the engine suffer much less. But if your Diesel fuel has already crystallized in your fuel system because it can't take temperatures below -12c, the block heater is... useless !!

No, not block heaters, or sump heaters as I know them as (had one in the Chevrolet in Canada). What I am talking about is a fuel pre-heater. Came across them in trucks in Canada. What I was wondering was do BMW fit them as standard in very cold countries like Finland, Iceland etc.

If you read this you will see what I mean. http://www.diesel-therm.com/diesel-therm.htm

Our motor insurance in the UK would never allow any of these after market items without an increase in your premiums. I would never fit one of these myself, just curious whether BMW do.

[mario486]

Originally Posted by tompak23d

In Sweden (I think that goes for whole Scandinavia right now) there is also lots of snow. We have the opporunity to use winter tires with pikes. We have the problem with "black ice". Thats when the road gets a layer of ice on the tarmac road = very slippery. This can only be handeled by "real winter tires" with pikes, such as Nokian HAKKA 7. I think it´s a real pitty that you guys in other countries can not ude winter tires with pikes. I believe that even in the USA and Canada you can not use tires with pikes. Right or wrong???

This morning we had -32 Celsius. A little bit of a problem for my X1 to get a real good heat inside the car...

Hi Tompak, spikes are illegal here in the UK. I did use them in Canada though but even there they had very hefty fines at the time if you were caught with spikes (or studs) on a dry road. Black ice has been a problem here in Scotland this year as well. Our temperature in Edinburgh has been below freezing for two weeks now with night time temps down to -15C.

[Gatekeeper]

Never seen those on a car.

True enough, there are very few Diesel engine cars sold on the North American domestic markets. I don't even think new cars sold in Canada have anything else than a block heater in their "Winter Package"... But it might be worth checking.

Vehicles with Diesel engines are usually pick-up trucks and vans.

[tompak23d]

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

Dunno for the US, each state seems to have its own regs, but definitely out in Canada.

Two reasons explained the decision to ban them :

1. Spikes do real damage to the roads.

2. A car with spiked tires gets very difficult to handle on dry and wet pavement, and our "southern" Winters even if they leave us with heavy snow and a few ice storms, still are predominantly "mild" compared to Sandinavia.

Hey.

Number one: Yes they do damage the roads, BUT the spikes does roughen up the roads so the non spike winter tires gets a good grip. This is proven by investigaters for the road minestery... (Sorry for my bad English)

Number two: Yes and no. That depends on the temperature, it has been tested by many car magazines in Sweden (Auto Motor Sport and so on). From +5 and down it is not so bad...

[Gatekeeper]

Originally Posted by tompak23d

Hey.

Number one: Yes they do damage the roads, BUT the spikes does roughen up the roads so the non spike winter tires gets a good grip. This is proven by investigaters for the road minestery... (Sorry for my bad English)

Number two: Yes and no. That depends on the temperature, it has been tested by many car magazines in Sweden (Auto Motor Sport and so on). From +5 and down it is not so bad...

That were the arguments from the authorities here in France when it was banned years ago.
And I remember my dad bitching when he had to drive his Peugeot with spike tires on wet pavement...

[mario486]

Originally Posted by tompak23d

Hey.

Number one: Yes they do damage the roads, BUT the spikes does roughen up the roads so the non spike winter tires gets a good grip. This is proven by investigaters for the road minestery... (Sorry for my bad English)

I like that one. Your Road Ministery sounds as if they have their heads srewed on right. Our bloody roads here are so poor and the tar so thin thay would stand no chance against spikes. Hell even the local busses rip up the road.

PS: Your English if perfectly fine, easily understandable and thank you for making the effort.

[BigDave]

Originally Posted by mario486

Hi Dave,

Sorry you had such a bad experience! I think that there are two factors at play here:

Firstly the tyres - No arguments from me, I agree. I cannot see why any car in Scotland at least needs summer tyres. Our warm season is at best about 3 months of the year, is rarely hot, very and often wet, and from November to March the air temps rarely get above 10C. We should be fitting all season tyres to all vehicles as standard. You say that your RAV4 had all seasons, did you fit them yourself or were they standard? Reason I ask is that I have yet to see any manufacturer fit all seasons as standard in the UK. I may be wrong with the likes of Land Rover, Range Rover etc but none of the sedans come with them. Interestingly I did ask my BMW dealer about this a while back and his response was that most drivers are more interested in getting a large number of miles out of their tyres than actual on road performance. You also only have to look at the rubbish tyres that people put on their cars (yes I know its a generalisation) with most going for the cheapest they can get. The likes of Michelins are seen as "too expensive" and Pirellis as "too soft", regardless of any safety benefits that these tyres may bring.

My winter driving experiences are somewhat limited to Scotland and a few months I have spent in Canada in arctic conditions. However I am now convinced that any vehicle driving in Scotland should have winter tyres fitted for the three to four cold months of the year. I believe this should be law, like it is on the continent.

Secondly the X1's 4x4 ability - This is a bit more contentious. I have never driven a RAV4 but I have driven Toyota HiLux's and Landcruisers extensively in Africa. If the RAV4 has half the offroad ability of the latter its probably a lot better than the X1 offroad. Note I say offroad as the two Toyotas, as well as the Nissan SUV's and Land Rovers I have driven are bloody awful on the motorways and around town. I can also tell you that the X1's handling and fuel consumption beats the two Toyotas (and the others I have driven) hands down. Point I am trying to make is that the X1 is a crossover and not a heavy duty off-roader. Very simply its lack of a low range, diff-lock and its relatively lower ground clearance will cause it to run out of steam when faced with any serious stuff off the tarmac.

I am going to add another point to this and am probably going to get a bit of flack for it too ... but what the hell... The X1 is cheap for what it is. This may not be true for every country but it certainly is here. Maybe we should start another thread with this as subject line.

Hi Mario - RAV4 came with all season tyres as standard & they were good & cheaper than summer tyres on X1. I don't know if I am being unrealistic but I would have hoped that the X1 could handle 4" of snow on level ground with summer tyres no problem at all? I posted a link to an autocar video for the X3 in this thread showing you the difference between summer and winter tyres. It is an eye opener!!

I have now complained direct to BMW as my dealer cannot help. Will probably get the brush off!!

[mario486]

Originally Posted by BigDave

Hi Mario - RAV4 came with all season tyres as standard & they were good & cheaper than summer tyres on X1. I don't know if I am being unrealistic but I would have hoped that the X1 could handle 4" of snow on level ground with summer tyres no problem at all? I posted a link to an autocar video for the X3 in this thread showing you the difference between summer and winter tyres. It is an eye opener!!

I have now complained direct to BMW as my dealer cannot help. Will probably get the brush off!!

Good luck with BMW. I think that generally there is a lack of understanding of the benefits of using different tyres for different situations and am not sure BMW would be any different. Must say I am surprised though that you did have problems in 4" of snow with the XDrive. Even with my summer tyres I did not have any issues, and I live up a steep hill. Its only when things got really icy that the summer tyres started icing up and things fell apart.
Wonder if it could be the specific tyres fitted to your X1, what are you on? My summers are Pirelli Centurato P7's.

PS: Yes I saw that video a while back. There is also a winter tyre test on AutoExpress thats says the same thing.