VW Beats FWD Nürburgring Record With 310-HP GTI Clubsport S

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Dale Lomas's blog...

http://www.bridgetogantry.com/video-...his-7m49s-lap/

Thanks Dack! Enjoyed that.

[OnlySoMany]

I have owned both fast fwd and rwd. Fwd can be exciting, especially when power levels get high. But for steering feel it's hard to beat a good rwd car. Honestly, if the Lancer evo 10 had about 400 whp and a bmw quality interior I would own one. But I'm tired of econobox interiors. Rather go slightly slower and have a nice experience. The m3 just does it for me.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

Other things equal (both cars have same tires, good setup, power to weight, etc), FWD has a GIGANTIC advantage over RWD. This is unequivocally the case and there is no room for argument whatsoever.

Oh come on now, your words sound overly dramatic and irrational.

There are trade-offs at play with either drivetrain type. In general, when cornering, RWD vehicles are likely to throttle over-steer, FWD vehicles are likely to throttle under-steer. Which one is "better" varies depending on driver familiarity, driving conditions, driving environment, and other variables. Additionally, vehicle wheelbase, weight, and weight balance are typically subject in part to the drivetrain type, and those too can be a factor in the vehicle's manageability and maneuverability.

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

... because you can recover a FWD from nearly any sketchy attitude by powering on.

Not so. A FWD vehicle that has been hopelessly misdirected via power-under-steer is very likely to continue to plow off course when given more throttle.

[TSM330i]

For those of you who are arguing FWD vs. RWD: You're missing the point.

This is about a very specific group of cars that are beyond "hot hatches." The Renault Megane and Seat Leon Cupra etc. that are being mentioned are full-blown, balls out, no holds barred track rat cars. They are typically produced in very low numbers and the costs, while high, would be difficult to replicate for the same money. They're backed by OEM engineering as well.

I'm sorry, but I don't care if it's FWD or RWD or AWD a 7:49 lap time is bloody fast.

Yes, I've driven the 'Ring in a Renault Sport Clio Cup rented from RSR. I had a blast and have great respect for anyone who's going balls out on a track with literally no run-off.

To some other points that were listed above, FWD cars and hatches are EXTREMELY popular all around the world (except the US). That is one of the reasons why these manufacturer's build these manic little cars.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

That's a nice way to put it but you'd probably put a car with any drivetrain into the wall if you tried to break 9 minutes.

I know, who doesn't enjoy massive understeer, right?

[RM7]

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

FWD has an advantage in racing over RWD when,

--other factors are equal, ie both cars have same tires, acceleration and overall level of prep
--traction level is very poor

This is because you can recover a FWD from nearly any sketchy attitude by powering on. RWD is capable in these conditions too, but requires a lot more attention and work to keep the car in line for a given pace. If the drivers and the cars are otherwise as fast, the FWD will have an advantage since the drivers can put more energy into going fast instead of trying to keep the car in line.

So basically never.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by TSM330i

To some other points that were listed above, FWD cars and hatches are EXTREMELY popular all around the world (except the US).

Huh? Probably 95% of all cars in the US are front wheel drive.

[TSM330i]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Huh? Probably 95% of all cars in the US are front wheel drive.

Hatches don't sell very well in the US.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by TSM330i

Hatches don't sell very well in the US.

Too much of a SUV/SAV fetish going on in the states. Wagons and Hatches get virtually ignored, which is too bad. I much prefer them if I need something bigger than a sports coupe.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by TSM330i

To some other points that were listed above, FWD cars and hatches are EXTREMELY popular all around the world (except the US).

Actually FWD cars in general are as popular in the US as anywhere else. You are correct that hatchback passenger cars don't meet the tastes of most American buyers. Though, ironically, if the vehicle is called an SUV instead of a hatchback or wagon, American buyers have no problem accepting the 5-door hatchback form factor. In fact, most people would more than likely reject the SUV outright if it didn't include a hatchback cargo compartment. This fact means that an eventual convergence between the hatchback passenger car and hatchback SUV could occur. Indeed even as SUVs become more and more car-like, they nevertheless steadily increase in popularity (both in the US and worldwide), trending slowly toward, perhaps, displacing traditional passenger cars completely some day.

Like I said earlier, the primary reason for the FWD drivetrain is that it is generally lower cost than RWD. The steady rise in popularity of FWD over the past fifty years or so is the result of buyers favoring the least expensive option that gets the job done (for the vast majority of people, FWD does that just fine), and manufacturers responding by building more vehicles that fit this criteria.

Now days, with AWD becoming more and more popular as an option for both FWD and RWD vehicles, the long-term need for RWD platforms is perhaps less critical than it has ever been. Even with AWD, however, there are still some advantages in chassis dynamics as far as having the engine longitudinal and therefore able to sit as close to the center of the car as is possible with a front-engine layout. That said, looking out further into the future, with EVs opening the door to engine configurations and positions that were not economically viable with ICEs, one could postulate that perhaps the distinction between platforms along the lines of what we think of as FWD and RWD will disappear.

TL;DR: Soon enough we'll all be driving* low-slung AWD hatchbacks with electric motors at every wheel, or at least both in back and front. Enjoy debating this stuff while we still have ICE-powered cars to make the debate relevant.

* or rather, in many cases, they'll be driving us now won't they?

[Tomahawk]

Originally Posted by TSM330i

Hatches don't sell very well in the US.

They dont sell well if you dont make them.. Tell Ford and VW that hatches dont sell and they laugh all the way to the bank.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Soon enough we'll all be driving* low-slung AWD hatchbacks with electric motors at every wheel, or at least both in back and front. Enjoy debating this stuff while we still have ICE-powered cars to make the debate relevant.

* or rather, in many cases, they'll be driving us now won't they?

A-freaking-men. It's unfortunate but exciting at the same time because this -- an electric drive unit at each wheel -- will end up being the single most important innovation in personal vehicles since the automobile was invented.

As for RWD vs. FWD: my point earlier was meant to demonstrate the drivetrain-related myopia of those posters. RWD is simply not a practical choice for the majority of drivers, and it is not the preferred drive system in either the majority of conditions or all possible conditions as a whole. FWD, for all its pros and cons, is -- It's cheaper to make, easier for a driver of [insert skill level here] to control, and can handle a broader range of conditions. So, manufacturers make 'hot' FWD vehicles that can burn around a track because, you know, it matters to more people because, well, they'll sell.

Is RWD fun? Yes. That's why I have a BMW. In Texas. If I lived in, say, Chicago, I would not drive a RWD car as a DD, even if I had a winter setup. Too much can go wrong that is out of your control (pun intended).

Finally: if weight distribution and oversteer/understeer concerns are so damned important, why aren't we all driving mid-engined vehicles? (NOTE: This question is rhetorical and meant to illustrate the relative unimportance of those factors)

[TSM330i]

Originally Posted by Tomahawk

They dont sell well if you dont make them.. Tell Ford and VW that hatches dont sell and they laugh all the way to the bank.

You're missing the point completely.

If you look at the percentage of overall car sales in the US vs. ROW, hatches barely make a blip on the radar in the US.

Does the GTI sell well for VW? Yes.
Does the Focus and Fiesta sell well for Ford? Yes and no. They do make a sedan version of both of them for the US market because hatches typically don't sell well in the US.

See many 1-series hatchbacks in the US?

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by TSM330i

7:49.21 and it's a manual!

Never-mind the RWD/FWD/manual, does it come with one of their diesel engines? Maybe they improved diesel acceleration together with mileage numbers.

Kidding aside, GTI has always been fairly reasonably priced fun car, and they are keeping the manual, way to go.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by TSM330i

You're missing the point completely.

If you look at the percentage of overall car sales in the US vs. ROW, hatches barely make a blip on the radar in the US.

Does the GTI sell well for VW? Yes.
Does the Focus and Fiesta sell well for Ford? Yes and no. They do make a sedan version of both of them for the US market because hatches typically don't sell well in the US.

See many 1-series hatchbacks in the US?

I'd own an M140i 5 Door if it were available in the US. But it's not, so I have a Mazda3 5 door. Would have a GTI or an R, but their dumb diesel thing and resale scared me away.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

As for RWD vs. FWD: my point earlier was meant to demonstrate the drivetrain-related myopia of those posters. RWD is simply not a practical choice for the majority of drivers, and it is not the preferred drive system in either the majority of conditions or all possible conditions as a whole. FWD, for all its pros and cons, is -- It's cheaper to make, easier for a driver of [insert skill level here] to control, and can handle a broader range of conditions. So, manufacturers make 'hot' FWD vehicles that can burn around a track because, you know, it matters to more people because, well, they'll sell.

Agree but it has nothing nothing to do with the car in this post. It isn't cheap, practical (it has no back seat), was designed specifically for this track, close to race tires on it, and reality is virtually no one would want to daily drive it. Take a standard M2, add a tune, rip out most the interior and sound deadening and put the same close to race tires on it and the time would also drop, wouldn't cost much, just doesn't make sense to do any of this.

The car is still taking a less than optimum engine/drive configuration and getting all they can out of it, specifically to set a track record, interesting reading but not something I have any interest in owning.

Once they’d packed in more power, they started throwing out weight—the Clubsport S has no rear seats, center armrest, rear parcel shelf, variable-height trunk floor, floor mats, or sound-deadening insulation. More mass-shedding includes a smaller battery, an aluminum subframe for the front suspension, and aluminum hats connected to steel brake rotors.

[Tomahawk]

Originally Posted by TSM330i

You're missing the point completely.

If you look at the percentage of overall car sales in the US vs. ROW, hatches barely make a blip on the radar in the US.

Does the GTI sell well for VW? Yes.
Does the Focus and Fiesta sell well for Ford? Yes and no. They do make a sedan version of both of them for the US market because hatches typically don't sell well in the US.

See many 1-series hatchbacks in the US?

Unfortunately, you dont see the 1 hatch and that is precisely my point. BMW missed a nice niche there. I know quite a few Golf R and GTI drivers that would jump ship for a RWD hot hatch. Instead, we get the 3 GT. And take the rental focus sedan out and the hatch greatly outsells the sedan.