X1 not a part BMW's "diesel barrage"

[Monterra]

Excited as I was to see this article, sentiment quickly turned negative when I realized a compression ignition X1 is apparently not part of any near/intermediate plans for BMWNA. Happy to see the X3 and 3 touring will get oil burners but between a higher point of entry and the Obama win with the promise of higher taxes and corporate regulation (I work in finance) I'm not so ready or willing to whip out that kind of cash. That leaves Mazda as my last hope of putting a diesel CUV in my driveway. Otherwise its probably back to Subaru. Depressing I know, stock market didn't like it too much either it seems.

[Red Bread]

What? I work in finance too and that was a first class ramble.

The E84 is an old chassis and unlikely to see much attention until an F chassis model arrives. The US doesn't crack enough diesel over current demand so I wouldn't expect a large volume of diesels regardless.

[Naambezet]

Import one from europe.
Get the 25D, 8 speed AT, 218 HP, 450 NM of torque, 6.8 from 0-62. Good enough?

[dchao]

Diesel cars only make sense in Europe where diesel is much cheaper than gasoline.

In the US, gasoline is so cheap, and diesel is not available at every pump, why does anyone want a diesel car there is beyond me.

Now Obama's green car policy will continue on for another 4 years, and one should go for electric instead, because of the federal tax credit.

[Monterra]

Diesel makes plenty of sense here (especially for our SUVs) and VW sales as well as new models being announced in droves lately are proving it. The fuel is readily available and with huge range and the internet at most of our fingertips that reasoning is no longer valid. Gasoline has been less available this past week in the tri state that's for damn sure. As more bus fleets and truckers convert to propane and CNG, diesel supplies should ease along with street prices relative to petrol. But even if they didn't 25-33% better fuel economy more than makes up the diff if there even is one to premium gas. Pricing is key and was a key factor of sluggish 335d sales- that and auto, RWD only.

[dchao]

I heard the reason for the high diesel price there was due to the shortage of the US diesel refineries. I think this shortage will continue for sometime, as Obama's green policy will see investment beeing pumped into renewable energy and electric cars only.

I think it's a huge risk for BMW to bring diesel into US, and they know that, that is why they are not doing it for the niche market lineup (like the X1)

[Grovsnus]

Here in the US, there is still a perception that diesel is highly polluting, with the thick black smoke coming from 18-wheelers, school buses, and diesel trains. With the newer car diesel engines this is mostly untrue (except on really cold days - see below).

It also costs more per gallon at the pump than regular fuel, and unfortunately there's a great many people who don't understand that it's still cheaper due to much higher mileage. This is inherent, and due to both more complete burning, and diesel fuel holding more energy in the first place.

Availability is not really a problem. Convenience may be, because where there are lots of gas stations, not all of them may have diesel. But at least one of them will.

The only real arguments I have against diesel is that up north, you need an engine block heater (or heated garage), or it won't start. BMW doesn't sell engine block heaters, it appears. And if you get it started, it will pollute far more on winter days. Some European countries talk about day-taxing or even banning diesel cars when it's really cold.

So yes, I can understand why BMW doesn't want to bring any diesels to the US market.

[Monterra]

I didn't know about the very cold weather and polluting thing. I read that unless its at or below 0F they had no issues which in my area is a pretty rare event. I think meeting US emissions while keeping cost at bay were the big hurdles, and of course the perception that everyone thinks they're dirty smelly and unreliable- sounds like my brother

[dchao]

Originally Posted by Monterra

and of course the perception that everyone thinks they're dirty smelly and unreliable- sounds like my brother

I just hope BMW do NOT use the word "Diesel" in any of their marketing brochure. Or having the D designation letter in the model number.

Mercedes use the term BlueTec.

[JOE YOUNG]

Originally Posted by dchao

Diesel cars only make sense in Europe where diesel is much cheaper than gasoline.

In the US, gasoline is so cheap, and diesel is not available at every pump, why does anyone want a diesel car there is beyond me.

Now Obama's green car policy will continue on for another 4 years, and one should go for electric instead, because of the federal tax credit.

the SWiss & the BRits pay more for diesel

[dchao]

Originally Posted by mjy2000

the SWiss & the BRits pay more for diesel

US too. Both the refinery cost and federal tax on diesel are all higher in the US.

This is why I don't understand BMW's move to push diesel into the USA. It will be extremely hard to convince American that diesel is cheaper and cleaner.

[mullini]

Diesel was briefly cheaper than regular here in California a couple weeks ago when we had one of our state-wide "refineries are down, pay through the nose" gas price things.

But prices have settled and I see diesel back to just over mid-grade, just below premium.

I almost bought a VW Jetta SW diesel...I was literally going to the VW dealer in late August when a BMW salesperson emailed me that they had just got an X1 available for testdrives...

[Grovsnus]

Originally Posted by dchao

US too. Both the refinery cost and federal tax on diesel are all higher in the US.

This is why I don't understand BMW's move to push diesel into the USA. It will be extremely hard to convince American that diesel is cheaper and cleaner.

1: Diesel holds more energy per volume than gasoline.
2: Due to the much higher pressure, diesel burns more completely than gasoline.

The net result is that a diesel engine uses 20-40% less fuel than a comparable powerful gasoline engine. If diesel costs 10% more, it's still a big win for those who drive a lot.
For those who drive less, it's not that clear of an advantage.

Cleaner? No, it's not. While newer diesel engines are much cleaner than older ones, and cleaner than old petrol engines too, advancements haven't only happened for diesel engines, so modern low-emission petrol engines are less polluting than modern diesel ones.

[Monterra]

Porsche Cayenne diesel 7.2 to 60(not blisteringly quick, no) Motorweek observed 29.4mpg, how is that not a win for SUV shoppers?

[bimmerdiesel]

Originally Posted by Grovsnus

The only real arguments I have against diesel is that up north, you need an engine block heater (or heated garage), or it won't start. BMW doesn't sell engine block heaters, it appears. And if you get it started, it will pollute far more on winter days. Some European countries talk about day-taxing or even banning diesel cars when it's really cold.

So yes, I can understand why BMW doesn't want to bring any diesels to the US market.

Not true about BMW diesels. my 335d comes with block heater and starts perfectly fine even at -9F. There are owners on this forum who were able to start their BMW diesels even at -20F(canadians).

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=763270

Originally Posted by Grovsnus

Cleaner? No, it's not. While newer diesel engines are much cleaner than older ones, and cleaner than old petrol engines too, advancements haven't only happened for diesel engines, so modern low-emission petrol engines are less polluting than modern diesel ones.

Not true again. 335d is cleaner than 335i. There is no black smoke what so ever. Also if you compare soot collected in tail pipes of 335i and 335d you will be surprised to find 335d's tail pipes a lot cleaner.

[Grovsnus]

Originally Posted by bimmerdiesel

Not true about BMW diesels. my 335d comes with block heater and starts perfectly fine even at -9F. There are owners on this forum who were able to start their BMW diesels even at -20F(canadians).

"Even at"? Back when I lived in inland Scandinavia, -20C to -30C (-4F to -22F) was the common January temperature range, and you could count on hitting -40 (either scale) at least once. That's real temperatures, none of that "feels like" windchill stuff the sissies over here reckon.
That's a No Go for diesel engines without an electric or gas powered engine block heater. So as you can imagine, there's a big market for 3rd party engine block heaters, and a fair amount of cussing over the many BMW models where you can't even fit one, and the best you can do is an oil pan heater (which won't help when the engine block sucks the heat right out of the pistons so the diesel won't ignite).
Your 335d must be an older model, because from what I can tell, you can't even fit one on the newer models.

For inland Scandinavia, Siberia, Alaska and non-border-hugging Canada, BMW diesels just aren't really the best option for winter use, and it's a shame that they've become less heavy winter friendly over the years, both with the lack of block heaters and winter wheel/tyre combinations with no sidewall, low rolling resistance and great wet grip, which is exactly the opposite of what you want for truly cold weather. I was surprised that I couldn't even get studded tires for the X1 from BMW anymore. But at least they sell a petrol version.

[bimmerdiesel]

Originally Posted by Grovsnus

"Even at"? Back when I lived in inland Scandinavia, -20C to -30C (-4F to -22F) was the common January temperature range, and you could count on hitting -40 (either scale) at least once. That's real temperatures, none of that "feels like" windchill stuff the sissies over here reckon.
That's a No Go for diesel engines without an electric or gas powered engine block heater. So as you can imagine, there's a big market for 3rd party engine block heaters, and a fair amount of cussing over the many BMW models where you can't even fit one, and the best you can do is an oil pan heater (which won't help when the engine block sucks the heat right out of the pistons so the diesel won't ignite).
Your 335d must be an older model, because from what I can tell, you can't even fit one on the newer models.

For inland Scandinavia, Siberia, Alaska and non-border-hugging Canada, BMW diesels just aren't really the best option for winter use, and it's a shame that they've become less heavy winter friendly over the years, both with the lack of block heaters and winter wheel/tyre combinations with no sidewall, low rolling resistance and great wet grip, which is exactly the opposite of what you want for truly cold weather. I was surprised that I couldn't even get studded tires for the X1 from BMW anymore. But at least they sell a petrol version.

I think you didnt read my comments properly. I didnt talk about feels like temps or external heaters. BMW diesel cars come with electric block heaters and there is no NEED of 3rd PARTY heaters. This equips BMW diesels (offered in NA) hassle free starting in cold environments and makes it competent with BMW gassers. All my comparisons were based on 35i and 35d engines. I have no knowledge of other diesel engines but I am pretty sure they too have electric block heaters.
X1 is not offered with Diesel variant is because of marketing reasons. Let X1 enter FXX series and you should be seeing diesel variant (provided mindset of average north american changes).
Avg NA driver doesnt like diesel and it requires mind drift to accept diesel. I have met numerous people who have admired my car for its performance but as soon as they realize its diesel they wouldnt believe coz they see no black smoke and no starting issues. They have never realized how far technology has advanced in diesels specially BMW.

I was lurking in this pond to help my friend get X1 and saw this thread. It amazes me even most BMW enthusiast fail to understand how far diesel technology has come.

[Grovsnus]

Originally Posted by bimmerdiesel

I think you didnt read my comments properly. I didnt talk about feels like temps or external heaters. BMW diesel cars come with electric block heaters and there is no NEED of 3rd PARTY heaters.

I think you did not read my post, because more and more of the newer BMW diesels do not come with engine block heaters, and no way to even mount them. Including the newer 335d, which you brought up as an example. Do a few googles, and you'll see it discussed.

This seems to be part of a shift in the direction BMW are going, from making winter friendly cars to vehicles less suited for extreme conditions.

They are not alone in this; it appears to be an overall market shift from "good enough" to "good enough for most". I personally wish it weren't so, and that I could get my X1 with an electric engine heater (yes, even for petrol cars), mirror defrosters, scraper friendly headlights, bigger door handles, 15" winter wheels with soft, studded tires (and a spare!), and enough clearance to put on chains.

[bimmerdiesel]

Originally Posted by Grovsnus

I think you did not read my post, because more and more of the newer BMW diesels do not come with engine block heaters, and no way to even mount them. Including the newer 335d, which you brought up as an example. Do a few googles, and you'll see it discussed.

may be we are talking about 2 different things. I am 100% that new BMW diesels come with some sort of heaters which aid in warming engine block for starting. Whenever this heater is active glow plugs signal lights up in car. Now in my 335d, cabin warms up in no time (even without AC). So far I have been assuming its single unit doing both. May be there are 2 different and later one is not available in latest models.

[Fastbuck]

They all have glo plugs but that's not the same as a block heater

[bimmerdiesel]

Originally Posted by Fastbuck

They all have glo plugs but that's not the same as a block heater

My bad for incorrect assumption.
Fastbuck you have 2 modern diesels in your stable. Do you have block heaters in both. 740d being luxury segment should have one but what about X1?

[Fastbuck]

Originally Posted by bimmerdiesel

My bad for incorrect assumption.
Fastbuck you have 2 modern diesels in your stable. Do you have block heaters in both. 740d being luxury segment should have one but what about X1?

Neither of my cars have them. It's an option on the F01 but I don't think available in the UK on the E84.